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Uh-Oh, here comes a God vs Science thread
axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

SiegeLord said:

Scientists can and do that every day.

Proving part* of science does not prove or disprove the nature of our existence.

Quote:

You just have to realise that proving something merely involves providing overwhelming evidence for it.

They just disprove religions. They don't prove that nothing exists beyond this spacetime.

For example, we can live in a simulation**.

*according to Gödel, no science can be proven 100%.

**evidence from the realm of the quantum mechanics point towards the universe being like 3d game renderer: just like a 3d game rendered clips the non-visible polygons, so does reality: a particle does not manifest itself as a solid object until it is observed***.

***i.e. until the need to go from the quantum level to the macro level.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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axilmar said:

Proving part* of science does not prove or disprove the nature of our existence.
*according to Gödel [en.wikipedia.org], no science can be proven 100%.

How is that relevant? You get very useful theories well before you are 100% sure of their correctness. You're missing the point of science: find hypotheses which fit the observed data the best. Just because multiple hypotheses fit the data equally well doesn't mean they are equally favorable or that there is no objective way to choose between them. Bayes theorem, or it's popular corollary of Occam's razor specifies which theory is best if they both fit the data equally well.

Get this idea of proving something 100% out of your head. You cannot prove things in the real world, every statement made about the real world has a non-zero (even if infinitesimally small) probability of being false. It also has the same guarantee about being true, even the most unlikely things might be true (but they are unlikely to be true).

But above all, just because two theories are not 100% proven, doesn't mean that they are on equal standing and are equally likely. That is not the case mathematically, and it is not how science has advanced historically.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Dizzy Egg said:

Hmmm...if it was 'proven'........'proved'..........no, 'proven' (went all 'Picollo' there for a sec) I would change my belief........so I guess I'm Agnostic and not Atheist...huh, this thread was worth starting, I learned something about myself.

If it was proven, I'd stop believing in Him. I'd say to Him "Sorry, but I thought you were someone else." But the existence of God will never be proven. By existence and proof I here mean the kind that atheists and scientists demand. It's a bit shame that many believers and many atheists think they're talking about the same thing. I mean, some believers think the existence of God can be proven in a way that atheists would accept. Those believers might not understand the philosophical problem in trying to define existence itself. We have lots of people, who have lost their faith at some point, when they have gained more knowledge of the scientific nature of the universe. And we have people, who haven't lost their faith, while remaining on an "uneducated" level. And we have people, who have never lost their faith, even though they have accomplished a deep knowledge of science. All Christians form a very heterogeneous group of varyinf beliefs. And despite lots of fights between these different beliefs, Christians hope to stick together. I think believing in creationism, Darwin or ID is not what defines whether you are a good or bad Christian or a Christian at all. Though that is for some Christians a crucial point, as well as for some atheists, too.

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Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Sirocco
Member #88
April 2000
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I had faith that this thread would have been locked by now.

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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Why lock it, I'm curious how long these guys can keep arguing for. ;)

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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The thread is damn fast growing, and is already pretty damn long.. Could anyone gimme a hint what are they arguing about?

J-Gamer
Member #12,491
January 2011
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I think believing in creationism, Darwin or ID is not what defines whether you are a good or bad Christian or a Christian at all. Though that is for some Christians a crucial point, as well as for some atheists, too.

This sums the discussion. There are a few people trying to explain the science of evolution etc. to others who are ignorant of the evidence and don't want to change what they think.
It's also true in the other direction.

" There are plenty of wonderful ideas in The Bible, but God isn't one of them." - Derezo
"If your body was a business, thought would be like micro-management and emotions would be like macro-management. If you primarily live your life with emotions, then you are prone to error on the details. If you over-think things all the time you tend to lose scope of priorities." - Mark Oates

Idealius
Member #1,619
November 2001

Idealius said:
How smart you are is inversely proportional to how religious you would enjoy being, however ignorance is bliss, and the only thing to be sure of is irony. So, think long and hard about your choices and how you envision your life to be day-to-day.

[quote]Does this mean that people with absolutely no interest in being religious are infinitely smart? That doesn't seem quite right. Actually, maybe you're just trying to be funny or something, but I think what you said was pretty rude and unpleasant.[/quote]

Wow, why so defensive? Why the automatic assumption having no interest in being religious equates to being infinitely smart? You are wrong for trying to point that out.

Think about the meaning of your posts before you post. Ok, sir?

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Idealius said:

Think about the meaning of your posts before you post. Ok, sir?

Think about the meaning of your own posts first.

Idealius said:

How smart you are is inversely proportional to how religious you would enjoy being,

So you are saying that if you 'enjoy' being religious then you are dumb, and if you don't 'enjoy' religion then you are smart.

This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

Hey, if you believe in Snow White or Red Riding Hood they lock you up in an asylum. Go figure. :P

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Neil Roy said:

Why lock it, I'm curious how long these guys can keep arguing for.

There is nothing to argue, at least not from the Atheist side of things. It goes something like this:
Theist: "God exists."
Atheist: "Please define God and provide evidence."
Theist: (various Bible quotes, personal feelings and other non-evidence)
Atheist: "That's not evidence."
Theist: "Is too. And you didn't provide any evidence either."
Atheist: "It is not, and I don't have to. I'm not postulating anything."

On the Creationist vs. Evolutionist front, it goes like this:
Evolutionist: "The variety of life forms has been caused by evolutionary mechanisms over the past few billion years, and it's still happening."
Creationist: "The variety of life forms was designed by an undefined intelligent creator."
Evolutionist: "I have evidence: carbon analysis of fossils clearly shows that species become extinct, and new ones appear all the time; we have replicated the first biochemical steps toward life in a lab situation; we understand genetics to the point where we can actively manipulate genes to produces mutations, and we know that random mutations happen all the time; we can observe how differences in physical traits alter an individual's chances of reproduction; the entire evolutionist explanation is free of internal contradictions."
Creationist: "I don't believe you. I need more evidence."

In other words:

  • The God hypothesis lacks evidence, and until such evidence is provided, I'll reject the hypothesis.

  • The Creationist hypothesis lacks evidence, and has internal contradictions (e.g., how come we can find plenty dinosaur fossils much much older than the oldest human remains, with no overlap whatsoever?); it also suffers from the unsupported, ill-defined creator concept (where did he come from in the first place? Why did he design the Universe? Where is he now?)

  • The Evolution hypothesis comes with plenty of evidence, it is free of internal contradictions, and it explains the variety in Earth's life forms with a minimum of unexplained assumptions. Until something comes along that is at least equally evident, equally free of contradictions, equally powerful in explaining the variety, and uses less unexplained assumptions, I'll stick with it.

So you are saying that if you 'enjoy' being religious then you are dumb, and if you don't 'enjoy' religion then you are smart. This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

This, you got right. Intelligence and religiousness aren't necessarily connected. However, there is a big difference between not being religious out of carelessness or lack of desire, and not being religious as a result of extensive soul-searching.

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Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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I love the fact that Atheists say there's no proof God exists. I have in my hand 1914 pages of His Word. His Word is proof of his existence just as surely as my word in this forum is proof of my existence.

Feel free to argue that man wrote the Bible and not God through man, but if you've read enough of the Bible you can see that it could only have been written through divine inspiration.

Psalm 22, written by David, foretells the crucifixion of Jesus, that they would pierce his hands and feet, and that they would gamble for Jesus's clothing. It was written long before Jesus was born. Jesus on the cross quotes the opening verse of Psalm 22 to bring attention to this fact :

Matthew 27:46 said:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

Now you can go about saying the authors wrote it that way to make it seem like Psalm 22 was a prophecy, but that's really a lame excuse.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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I love the fact that Atheists say there's no proof God exists. I have in my hand 1914 pages of His Word. His Word is proof of his existence just as surely as my word in this forum is proof of my existence.

If you're serious it's sad. Really. And I do not consider myself an atheist.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

^^

Theist: (various Bible quotes, personal feelings and other non-evidence)

Spot on. You think Tobias is a prophet? :o:o

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

Its a tricky situation, if we let you use the Bible as proof, then where do you draw the line? If the Bible is proof of Gods existence, then who are you to say that the Koran is not proof of Allah's?

If you believe that the Bible is proof of His existence thats fine and dandy, but don't write about it here expecting anyone to take you seriously. Its a book written by man that got out of control.

Want modern day proof? Look at what L. Ron Hubbard did. The people that are in the Church of Scientology think much like you do, they just have a different set of beliefs. Now don't say they are being brainwashed because you would be digging yourself a very deep hole.

EDIT:
But quite frankly, don't bother replying, it makes no sense. If you think the Bible is proof of God existence, I think you are a complete nutjob. If I had a saying, I'd institutionalize people like you.

On the other hand you probably think I'm an asshole/idiot/jerk. But thats fine. This is the Internetz. ;)

In capitalist America bank robs you.

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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oh come all ye faithful

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

And I do hope people don't carry these kinds of things to the other forums on a.cc. Sure, I may call you a nutjob regarding religion, but I think most of you are fantastic people.

I have a friend that is deeply religious. Sure I think he is a nutjob (I tell him regularly). But we both don't take each other very seriously because, like I said, such debates are useless and never lead anywhere.

So this is it from me in this thread. Have fun!

In capitalist America bank robs you.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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What's sad is that some people can't accept the truth when it's staring them in the face.

I was raised in quite a religious family. I see no reason to be sure bible wasn't written by wise people. Could you explain why you think it wasn't? I'm fine with whatever thing it is, just I can't see any evidence for either statement.

Striker
Member #10,701
February 2009
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Edgar, maybe you as bible expert can answer me one question i am looking for an answer since a long time:

You know in the story where Jesus was born there came three kings from orient, Kaspar, Melchior and Balthasar. They came because of the star, which was an astrological sign to them. So, if in the most important point of the most important christian story astrology has such an important role, how can it be christians don't believe in astrology?

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Vanneto said:

If the Bible is proof of Gods existence, then who are you to say that the Koran is not proof of Allah's?

Allah may well exist, but I have massive doubts that he is God. More likely a fallen angel pretending to be holy. Satan himself is slated to come to Earth in the disguise of Jesus Christ, and many will be deceived by him.

Vanneto said:

If you believe that the Bible is proof of His existence thats fine and dandy, but don't write about it here expecting anyone to take you seriously. Its a book written by man that got out of control.

If it was strictly written by man, then how does it tie together so well? Was there some kind of guide that all the authors of the Bible followed so that it all ties together?

How do you explain Psalm 22 detailing the activities of the crucifixion thousands of years before it took place? Was it a script they all followed? Or is it more likely that God knows the future before it takes place and inspired David to write the 22nd psalm in the first place.

Vanneto said:

Want modern day proof? Look at what L. Ron Hubbard did. The people that are in the Church of Scientology think much like you do, they just have a different set of beliefs.

I doubt very much that my thinking is like those in the church of scientology.

Vanneto said:

Now don't say they are being brainwashed because you would be digging yourself a very deep hole.

They must be brainwashed, why else would they pay exorbitant amounts of money to get to the 'next level' of scientology and receive 'secret teachings'. The whole thing is a giant extortion racket.

type568 said:

I see no reason to be sure bible wasn't written by wise people. Could you explain why you think it wasn't?

How else do you explain the 22nd psalm coming true with precise detail thousands of years after the fact? How do you explain Jesus rising from the dead and all of the other miracles He (and his disciples) performed?

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

First point:
You do realize they probably think the same way of your religion right? But you are right and they are wrong. I get it.

Second point:
It wasn't written all at once. It was edited heavily by the Church. But you are right and I'm am wrong and what I say is not true. I get it.

Third point:
They believe just like you believe. Telling them little grey men don't exist is like telling you God doesn't exist. But you are right and I am wrong. I get it.

Fourth point:
Not to them. Saying its a racket is basically insulting their religion. But why not? You are right and they are wrong. I get it.

Seriously I do get it and you are truly right. I really don't want to be involved in this so why not end this by me saying I agree with you completely. :)

In capitalist America bank robs you.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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How else do you explain the 22nd psalm coming true with precise detail thousands of years after the fact?

Bad my memory is, and wiki is useless here. Which one is that?
I would assume however, it is as everything in the bible is is very clouded and blurred allowing multiple interpretations and being not specific, so that something may just eventually come true, while all the things that do not don't prove anything is wrong. The book IS very wise.

Quote:

How do you explain Jesus rising from the dead and all of the other miracles He (and his disciples) performed?

Not proven facts? It could be just so, yet having it's source of "mystic power" not from the Holy Bible "legend"?

OR, it is all quite true as written.. I don't mind if it's so.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Hyprocrites.You want us to prove that God exists without using the evidence He provided us.So prove evolution is real without any scientific evidence then. If you're truly arguing on the same playing field.

If it's not scientific, then it is not ultimately evidence. If you want to argue on the same playing field, commit to basic logic, and make your way from there.

What you quote from the Bible is all fine and dandy, and it's fascinating, no doubt about that, but it doesn't prove anything except that someone wrote it all down. Doesn't mean it actually happened exactly like this. You know those novels where strange things happen? Exactly the same thing.

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Me make music: Triofobie
---
"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén



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