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Uh-Oh, here comes a God vs Science thread
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Are you saying God would intentionally sabotage the survey to hide from the public? Does it say in the bible that He does not allow Himself to be revealed?

Of course he won't reveal himself! It wouldn't be a test then, would it? I don't know why he revealed himself to those people who've been dead lo these many years though.

[EDIT]

... and? How is this important?

I tried it, it doesn't work, therefore I don't believe it. How can you possibly expect otherwise? I don't believe those ads in my spam folder either, no matter how much they claim to tell the truth.

Actually, I've read a couple scholarly books on religion, and can't see how the authors could possibly believe what they're writing about could be true. Maybe the Pope and all those cardinals are the trolls.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Are you saying God would intentionally sabotage the survey to hide from the public? Does it say in the bible that He does not allow Himself to be revealed?

Since when has "the public" given a crap about the results of a scientific study, exactly? :) Let's pretend the experiment proved God existed. I'd bet good money the worldwide percentages of believers wouldn't change 1%.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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There's a reason these sorts of papers get labeled as "academic"; theories look good on paper but they're impractical, unrealistic, and not terribly useful. ... I'm a results kinda guy.

Wow. Well, no point in providing any scientific evidence to you, eh?

EDIT:

I'd bet good money the worldwide percentages of believers wouldn't change 1%.

Yep, definitely no point.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I'd bet good money the worldwide percentages of believers wouldn't change 1%.

There you go with that "lack of proof is good enough for me" again.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

Wow. Well, no point in providing any scientific evidence to you, eh?

What can I say. I'm a results guy; I side with practice over theory. Sue me. Or get better results. 8-)

REVISION!!!!!!!!:

There you go with that "lack of proof is good enough for me" again.

Lack of proof of what? Human nature? If you've got some proof, answer the first question. If anything, all I've heard in this thread is bitching about how people ignore scientific facts. Is this not expected behavior?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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This is like... like... arguing with a twenty three year old three year old! I really am done with this thread.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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"Let's pretend the experiment proved God existed. I'd bet good money the worldwide percentages of believers wouldn't change 1%."
Maybe we're talking about a different definition of proof but you make it sound like it would be the same if God knocked on everyone's doors and said "Sup. I'm God." then pulled off some pretty mindbending stuff.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Maybe we're talking about a different definition of proof but you make it sound like it would be the same if God knocked on everyone's doors and said "Sup. I'm God." then pulled off some pretty mindbending stuff.

The same as what? Neither that nor the science would sound like they would be terribly convincing to anyone.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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I must have missed a joke somewhere. I guess I'm slow that way.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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As I said, some (most?) Christians assume that atheists are closed minded. I would argue that this is due to their own refusal to even consider alternatives, and the refusal for atheists to accept Christian arguments as valid. Therefore, they assume nothing would change our minds, even if God were somehow proven to exist. IMO the assumption is very, very wrong.

As for the humans are not logical creatures thing, it's complete bullshit. The implication is that since humans are not perfectly logical creatures that they must not be logical at all. It's a completely flawed argument. Logical thinking has brought us a ton of technology and understanding that we lacked only a few hundred years ago. Being imperfect is a very poor excuse for not trying to understand things at all. Again:

{"name":"science.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/3\/53817aa38cffd1e7c7146397484748cb.jpg","w":500,"h":389,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/3\/53817aa38cffd1e7c7146397484748cb"}science.jpg

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

As I said, some (most?) Christians assume that atheists are closed minded.

Everyone assumes everyone is closed minded.

{"name":"sheeple.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/5\/75d5173ae2ef56fa4b16d1367c572332.png","w":376,"h":401,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/5\/75d5173ae2ef56fa4b16d1367c572332"}sheeple.png

Quote:

Therefore, they assume nothing would change our minds, even if God were somehow proven to exist. IMO the assumption is very, very wrong.

If you're referring to my comments, I never once specified atheists ... or which God ... technically, my still-open question wasn't even religion-specific ...

Quote:

As for the humans are not logical creatures thing, it's complete bullshit.

Cool story, bro.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Dizzy Egg said:

I'm just (maybe dangerously) curious about how people feel about these discoveries. i.e, we are made from stardust...the Universe is billions of billions of years old...does it shake yer faith?

Atheist, Christian, Agnostic or whatever, you'd have to be distinctly unimaginative to be incapable of thinking up a marriage between the two.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Firstly, being closed-minded is not the same as being a "sheep" (i.e., brainless; a blind follower). Being closed-minded is refusing knowledge without reason, whereas being a sheep is following the group instead of making ones own decisions.

Secondly, I don't believe that most people are closed-minded about most things. On the contrary, many people are open to change their views on many things. For example, a computer programmer should easily be able to enlighten most anyone with an opinion on how software works. An automotive mechanic should easily be able to enlighten most anyone with an opinion on why their car doesn't work. Etcetera. You'd only really affect the people that care, of course. You can't expect somebody that doesn't care to absorb all of the shared wisdom, but that's indifference, not closed-mindedness.

If you're referring to my comments, I never once specified atheists ... or which God ... technically, my still-open question wasn't even religion-specific ...

Apparently I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Do me a favor and link to these "comments" so I see what point you're trying to make right now...

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

On the contrary, many people are open to change their views on many things.

Only the most trivial. You've never heard the old saying that people stop learning by the age of 20 and spend the rest of their lives defending what they know? :) Old patterns are hard to drop, which is the reason I'm still in business ...

Quote:

Apparently I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore.

Okay, then you weren't referring to me. Never mind.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Let's pretend the experiment proved God existed. I'd bet good money the worldwide percentages of believers wouldn't change 1%.

Hmmm...if it was 'proven'........'proved'..........no, 'proven' (went all 'Picollo' there for a sec) I would change my belief........so I guess I'm Agnostic and not Atheist...huh, this thread was worth starting, I learned something about myself.

By the by 23, and Neil too (and others too!) I really didn't start this thread very well, or how I had intended; what I should have asked is, does your understanding and structure of your faith change in response to scientific discovery/new understanding of our being, etc?

If, as 23 said very early on, there is no link at all between [my understanding of] science vs [my understanding of] religion then please, disregard my OP and give me time to learn more.......much more.

However this whole thing turns out, please do accept that I don't question your beliefs or faith and am open to accepting I'm wrong about what I believe to be true (which states: there is no God, Evolution IS happening and the Universe is one big expanding space that started....well, if I knew that... :o ), and am open to accept as my truth what you believe to be the truth, if as you say it could ever be proved (not saying that you WANT me to believe what you believe, just emphasising that I'm open to all paths).

In a way, I like to think everyone here would believe what is freaking me out (the reason for all this 'debating' in the first place!) was true, IF it could be.....proved.

I don't know why I believe WHAT I believe to be true, and at the same time need you to PROVE to me what YOU believe to be true in order for me to accept it; maybe someone more intelligent than myself (a few of you here I know!) could explain that phenomenon to me!

Atheist, Christian, Agnostic or whatever, you'd have to be distinctly unimaginative to be incapable of thinking up a marriage between the two.

Unless I've severely misunderstood this; your hinting at me having no imagination? I can happily, nay ecstatically defend myself on this being a falsehood, with a whole range of media, text and spoken word. Really, imagination and creativity is all I have...really! :P
:-/

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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Since when has "the public" given a crap about the results of a scientific study, exactly? Let's pretend the experiment proved God existed. I'd bet good money the worldwide percentages of believers wouldn't change 1%.

I disagree. The public does care about scientific studies. Some studies are difficult to understand and are thus misinterpreted or ignored, but in the public are certainly listening. Most people don't believe that the earth is flat, for example. I'm sure a proof of God would make a huge change in the percentage of believers. Maybe not immediately, but it would be huge.

-----------

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Most people don't believe that the earth is flat, for example.

This is a long-standing thing that they're taught when they're children and has nothing to do with science as far as the child is concerned. They just believe it because a grown-up told them (like anything else). Hell, to this day I still don't have scientific proof the Earth is round. ;D I believe it, but that has nothing to do with science.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Everyone assumes everyone is closed minded.

Nice generalisation there.
I for one do not assume that, so there. Not everyone assumes everyone else is close minded.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote:

Nice generalization there.

What can I say? It was an improvement on his.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
avatar

This all started when in a previous thread (I don't know how to link a previous thread) I made the announcement that I had discovered, thanks to BBC1 (UK) and Brian Cox (Dude) a lot more than I had previously known about my being.

After that thread (again, I don't know how to link a previous thread) I shared a song that I completed (again....thread....previous....link.....nope, nothing) due to that thread (that I don't know how to link).

This thread is far too complex and above me to ever allow me to create a song from it.




Luckily, part I of the song (part II) that was shared (I don't know how to link to it) is already written (I know how to link to it, Part I) and had already evolved (in 2010, check the YouTube posted date) and if this isn't the post to lock all posts on this thread then I don't know what to do.

Yes, God (ML) gave you the power, and yes, I edited this post. I'm tired.

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Why do we want to persuade others that what we believe is true, and what they believe is not? we can't prove what we believe anyway.

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Prove it.

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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axilmar said:

Why do we want to persuade others that what we believe is true, and what they believe is not? we can't prove what we believe anyway.

Scientists can and do that every day. You just have to realise that proving something merely involves providing overwhelming evidence for it.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I couldn't help myself. ;D
The Flat Earth Society

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

J-Gamer
Member #12,491
January 2011
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More than half of the site is under construction... and the first argument is completely nonsense. If this were true, where would all the sattelites be orbiting/taking pictures from?

EDIT: As for breaking the first argument: They say light is a wave, and because of that, it has to travel trough something so the "ether" must exist. Light is an electromagnetic wave which can easily travel trough a vacuum like space.

" There are plenty of wonderful ideas in The Bible, but God isn't one of them." - Derezo
"If your body was a business, thought would be like micro-management and emotions would be like macro-management. If you primarily live your life with emotions, then you are prone to error on the details. If you over-think things all the time you tend to lose scope of priorities." - Mark Oates



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