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Uh-Oh, here comes a God vs Science thread
William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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The question of whether or God exists isn't an intelligent question unless what is meant by God is clearly defined.

If someone asks me or anyone if I or they believe in God, they are assuming I or they know what the word refers to and my response must depend on that knowledge. To an atheist, God is at least a concept he/she is familiar enough with to disbelieve in.

The fact that people say they believe or don't believe gives away the fact that they don't know. When you know, you don't have to believe because you know. If you're standing outside and someone asks you if it's raining, you can say yes or no because the fact is evident in your experience.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Edit: debate ended, at least for me. ;)

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I'm pretty closed minded about Santa Claus too.

Oh, by the way...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Neil Roy said:

you have to agree to hold back on the insults and jokes against each others beliefs in order for that to work

I encourage others to joke and insult my beliefs. Offend me. Take your best shot.

That's the kind of certainty I have about them. If I'm offended, then there is something there that I can work with. If it's more dribble from a sleeping mind, I'll try to shake them awake.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Derezo said:

I encourage others to joke and insult my beliefs. Offend me. Take your best shot.

What are your beliefs anyhow? Can't very well insult or joke about nothing. ;)

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I believe that genetics are the origin of all the traits that life encompasses. What is bred in the bone will come out in the flesh.

Of course, that is of biblical nature. I don't have a lot of beliefs, but I believe that others hold far too many and adopt them carelessly. Insult that one.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I don't enjoy insulting or making fun of other people's beliefs.

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Sometimes it's very effective.

{"name":"zopbu.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/8\/e86eee6babcd50e0d11e4835d4c9dc23.jpg","w":600,"h":530,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/8\/e86eee6babcd50e0d11e4835d4c9dc23"}zopbu.jpg

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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Derezo said:

I don't have a lot of beliefs, but I believe that others hold far too many and adopt them carelessly.

That's a really s_h_i_t belief. It just shows you think people aught to be more like you

_Kronk_
Member #12,347
November 2010

Neil Roy said:

I believe you all love to argue. 5 pages in here already?!

I'm done :) We'll all find out in the end I suppose.

--------------------------------------------------
"If only our dreams were fires to ignite, then we could let the whole world burn" -Emery

My blog: http://joshuadover.tumblr.com

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Dude, I play nothing but Devil's Advocate around here. What kind of questions wouldn't I ask if I did Bible studies? Can you even imagine? ;D Most of my friends read more atheist than theist apologetics anyway ...

Since you don't seem to question anything the Bible says I doubt you'd question much. ::) By the room, I didn't mean hanging out with friends. I meant meeting with other religious people (i.e., church or Bible studies). If you don't go then you hardly qualify.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

Since you don't seem to question anything the Bible says I doubt you'd question much.

And you would get the idea I don't question the Bible from where? I've spoken a lot about basic reading comprehension (and again, I would make the same assertions if I were an atheist) but just because the Bible says something in plain text doesn't automatically mean I'm on board. Obviously. Maybe I need to pull out the LotR example again instead ...

Quote:

I meant meeting with other religious people (i.e., church or Bible studies). If you don't go then you hardly qualify.

My friends are ministry workers I met at church and I teach Sunday School. What's the qualification I'm missing?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Edit: debate ended, at least for me. ;)

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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It just shows you think people aught to be more like you

I do think that way, when it comes to beliefs, but I do also believe that everyone who is alive today or who will ever live and has ever lived, are a unique, fractal expression of the universe.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Edit: debate ended, at least for me. ;)

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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It's the ideas that matter, not Darwin's exact words. Natural selection seems quite sensible to me.

[EDIT]

If you believe the words are more important, then maybe a book written by some superstitious stone-age goatherders might seem reasonable.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Darwin died over 100 years ago. :P There is an entire scientific community today to back the theory of evolution now. IIRC, Darwin wasn't entirely right, but I think he is credited as being the first to see the pattern (science, unlike religion, is an iterative process; if at first you don't succeed, you revise and try again). What's more, evolution makes sense, unlike the Bible and God. I questioned it. On numerous occasions. It holds up, IMHO.

Agreeing with a scientific idea doesn't mean that I subscribe to every little microscopic detail that any scientist claims about it. It means that I agree that species evolve and that humans are the result of evolution, not a supreme being. I'm not a scientist so I'm not going to keep up with nor understand every little detail about the science behind it. Who has that kind of time? Surely, not even all of the scientists that study it know every little detail proposed across the planet. They specialize in their fields and understand what they need to do their work. We're not computers. We're human. I'm a computer programmer. Human evolution doesn't come up at work. That doesn't discredit it. :P I leave the study of biology (including evolution) to the actual scientists and catch what I can when I can.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Edit: debate ended, at least for me. ;)

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Roy said:

I can't show you God... you can't show me evolution.

Thats the whole basis of science, provability. If you can't test it in a reproducible way, or see it, it isn't a viable theory.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Neil Roy said:

There is an entire religious community today to back up the idea of God now.

At one time, the common man believed the earth to be flat. Religion is just taking a little longer. http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/606868/910806#target (click the link in that post)

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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Derezo said:

I do think that way, when it comes to beliefs, but I do also believe that everyone who is alive today or who will ever live and has ever lived, are a unique, fractal expression of the universe.

Nice to see you weren't offended by my obnoxious post.

That's an interesting belief. Perhaps the act of belief is an acknowledgement of the inherently mysterious nature of existence, but "a unique, fractal expression of the universe.", is an abstract concept whose grandeur might diminish if expanded into terms more amenable to everyday understanding.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Edit: debate ended, at least for me. ;)

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Watches don't have big toes, appendixes that get inflamed, a spine that's terribly suited for upright walking, on and on and on. In other words, it was designed, not just random junk, some of which happened to work. Maybe the watches that have Roman numerals on the face have something non-functional, but that's about it. I wonder why nobody's invented a digital watch that displays Roman numerals?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy said:

The apostles died almost 2000 years ago. :P There is an entire religious community today to back up the idea of God now. IIRC, the religious community wasn't entirely right, but they were the first to see a pattern. What's more, God makes sense, unlike "Origin of the Species" and Darwin. I questioned it. On numerous occasions. It holds up, IMHO. :)

You see, it all depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

They can't actually back up the idea of God with evidence. All they can give is opinions and man maintained text. If you're willing to believe that then I have a book you need to read that details how God wants you to give me all of your money. :D

Neil Roy said:

I can't show you God... you can't show me evolution.

I can't, but I bet scientists can. It has allegedly been witnessed in laboratories in simpler organisms (in more complex organisms it makes sense for changes to be more subtle on such a large and complicated scale). IIRC, Wikipedia said that fruit flies have been observed evolving in the laboratory, for example.

Neil Roy said:

I can't talk to God, but I believe He is an all powerful intellect,...

Yet so many Christians insist that God has given them messages and the like. :P Not you, I guess, which I must admit is refreshing, but nevertheless...

Neil Roy said:

...you can't talk to evolution, but you believe it is an all powerful intellect (it DOES make intelligent decisions after all, and intelligent decisions require an intelligence).

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but I think the changes are more accurately described as "accidental" or "random". The "intelligent" or "guided" part is natural selection. That is, if an animal evolves to have attributes that benefit it in its environment then it is more likely to succeed (and therefore pass on its attributes). Contrarily, if an animal evolves to have attributes that hinder it in its environment then it's more likely to fail (and therefore not pass on its attributes). It should then be obvious that attributes that benefit the animal should most often succeed those that don't. To the best of my knowledge, evolution is not believed to be an intelligent mind making decisions, as if each cell gets to decide what its clone is, but rather the clones are just natural imperfections that occasionally result in benefits or hindrances that affect the animal's success in life. It just so happens that attributes are passed down as a result of the reproduction process of organisms so these "imperfections" tend to be passed on and can accumulate.

Neil Roy said:

Evolution is as much a religion as any of the others out there.

It's really not. :) It's a science, and a science that is very well accepted by the scientific community. The difference between the scientific community and religious communities is that the former requires you to be intelligent, educated, and competent to succeed; the latter only really requires your nonresistance. ;D



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