Pulled what?

I'm making no definite statement at all regarding that verse. You are the one building a doctrine out of it. You cannot know what I believe as I've not stated it.

Edit, PS:

Maybe I should put this into my sig:

2 Kings 2:1,11 "And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind ... stuff happens ... and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

So now you get into word games, where you just say "that heaven is the sky", etc. But that's just silly.

It's easier and less hassle to just not claim Jesus meant nobody has ever or will ever go to heaven.

After all, I could claim my dead father is in heaven because he died after Jesus said that. So now you need to come up with another verse that bars him from heaven, and so on.

I'm speaking of reading the entire passage. I'm not sure what part of that you don't understand. You should ask, "What's the point of this passage or story?" And take away the meaning from that. Pulling one verse and building a doctrine out of it can make for some interesting ideas... And yes, I think many (if not most) doctrines taught by Christian churches are made up like that.

Let's assume Jesus did mean literally that. You are still extrapolating a doctrine out of it.

Did he say: "no man has ever gone into heaven, and no man will ever go into heaven?" You are adding that last bit.

Maybe somebody who died the next day after that statement got an express ticket up there.

Matthew is probably the most apathetic person on this forum. I doubt you can actually upset him.

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/popcorn

Where is it said? What does that mean? What does that have to do with the quote you responded to? If you're right, have you questioned enough? What kind of people do you assume have questioned more or less than you? No idea where you're coming from here ... so many odd presuppositions ... teach me your belief system!

I've long held that view that if God wants me to believe, then He'll give some kind of a sign, or set of circumstances to me to allow me to believe. Since God is all knowing etc. He must know that there is no way I personally could not possibly have faith in Him or in any of the stories in the bible in my current circumstances.

The bible was written by humans, and I see no reason to believe their word over the thousands of other humans telling me all sorts of other things — stories about different kinds of deities, and other supernatural events/powers/places; stories with different sorts of morals and belief systems. Why should I trust and have faith in one system of belief over another? The only way I can truly believe something is if I can understand the reason and evidence myself. There are a lot of people in the world out there saying a lot of crazy things; some are obviously not true, some are less obviously not true, and some are actually true! It isn't always easy to tell the difference, and I wouldn't want to get it wrong on something as important as the existence of God.

In conversations like this one, a quote attributed to Buddha comes to my mind

To me, that kind of reasoning is at the heart of wisdom. It has been a core part of my believe system since as long as I can remember.

I cannot possibly believe in God or what is said in the bible without some kind of sign from God. God should know and understand this. So I can only conclude that either God doesn't exist, or that God doesn't want me to believe in Him. I can only hope that my circumstances don't ultimately result in an eternity in hell or something like that. I think that would be unfair.

The main reason I'm saying all of this is that it seems to me most of this thread is kind arguing at cross purposes. I don't think anyone really cares much about what the teachings of God are until they actually believe in God. Without faith in God, the words of the bible are just stories to be picked apart and mocked. Clearly the wording of the bible is not precise enough to avoid argument; and where it seems precise but inaccurate, we can always interpret it as a metaphor or something.

As for the idea that we should be free to believe whatever we like, and not care whether or not other people believe in God — well it's a nice thought, but I don't think it's so simple. Different belief systems can lead to a clash of morals and values. A few things that spring to mind are the clash of religion and science on the issues such as the origin of species and the creation of the earth; there are also political issues such as what are the appropriate punishments for crimes and who may marry whom; and there are other more personal issues such as whether marriage is important for your relationship - which may be a sexual relationship.

A gay couple wanting to get married, or an atheist wanting to have premarital sex with their religious partner may find that the heart of their conflict is the question of whether God is real. So often it really does matter what other people believe, because it affects us – politically, personally, scientifically.

And I thought it came from "No Exit" by Jean-Paul Sartre.

I don't think thats what Sartre meant.

Neil, I don't think deleting your posts is a good idea. If the problem is that the quotes have been taken out of context, or that people have misinterpreted what you have said, then surely it's far better to leave your posts intact so that other people have a chance to read them and interpret them as well, and to check the context etc. If a few people disagree with you, misunderstand you, mock you, or whatever - I don't see that as a reason for you to hide all your thoughts from everyone else.

If you disagree with your own posts, or if you think you have expressed your point in such as way as to invite misinterpretation, then maybe you should consider removing the posts. But if you truly believe what you have said then you should stand by it. Don't delete it just because someone disagreed with you or misunderstood you.

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I prefer to believe the best of people. But deleting all your posts looks really bad. Now I only have my memory to go on for what was actually said, and I find myself assuming the worst.

Another religion thread comes to its inevitable outcome. Next time let's all be even more obstinate and closed-minded!

All out of popcorn; back to coding ...