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A question to all the married men
Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Evert said:

Reality, however, is unknown and we have only our perception of it to go on.

Reality is unexplainable, but I'm not sure about unknowable. I think everyone knows reality, but pay more attention to subjective experience.

Regarding beliefs, the wikipedia article on agnosticism is an interesting read.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Evert said:

So if people don't agree on that, who should anyone believe on what it says?

Explain to me what bearing people's belief of what it says has on what it says.

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If you say the Bible says "X" and someone else says it says "Y", who is speaking the truth?

Either? Both (depending on context)? Neither? Does it matter?

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How can "belief" be irrelevant here?

I still don't see how it would be relevant. Explain to me why a book should care what people think it says. Let's go back to my LotR example. I believe Samwise was the ringbearer, not Frodo. What effect does this have on anything?

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Derezo said:

Reality is unexplainable, but I'm not sure about unknowable.

I happen to personally disagree with you about unexplainable. Note that I didn't say unknowable but unknown. The thought behind what I'm getting at is essentially Plato's cave analogy: what we perceive may not be reality, but just a projection of it. How can we tell? Could we even tell? Can we still learn about reality by studying the projections on the wall?

Explain to me what bearing people's belief of what it says has on what it says.

Huh?
You never deal with what the Bible (or any other source for that matter) says, you deal with people's interpretation of what it says. You read a text, and understand it in a certain way. Did you understand it correctly? Maybe, maybe not. How do you find out? Read it again and see if your understanding changes? Ask other people what they think? What if their interpretation is different?

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Either? Both (depending on context)? Neither? Does it matter?

It rather does if people try to argue a point by saying "the Bible says X", yes. It does if you want to argue that it says something about reality, or want to know what exactly it says.
Maybe you're satisfied with not knowing. Good for you, but then don't argue if someone else does want to know.

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I still don't see how it would be relevant.

How is it not relevant what you belief if you're discussing what you belief?

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Explain to me why a book should care what people think it says.

A book doesn't care about anything. It's just a book. I'd place the Bible in that category, wouldn't have thought that you would, but ok.
It starts to matter if people base their worldview, life and how they interact with others on their interpretation.

Quote:

Let's go back to my LotR example. I believe Samwise was the ringbearer, not Frodo. What effect does this have on anything?

Your example is flawed,[1] unless you say there is no real distinction between the Bible and the Lord of the Rings: they're both books, collections of wonderous tales that take place in a fantasy world that have no bearing on reality.
It doesn't matter as long as you don't get different groups of people who knock eachother's brains out because some of them are Frodoers and others are Samwisers. It doesn't matter if Frodoers don't burn gardeners at the stake because the false Ringbearer Samwise was a gardener. It doesn't matter if people don't ritualistically cut off your ring finger just because Frodo lost his. But most of all it doesn't matter because people don't base their worldview on the world that is depicted in the book. If they did, it'd be interesting to investigate it. Try to find the location of Mordor, look for the ruins of Minas Tirith. Look for Dwarves in the deep caverns beneath the Earth.
Either way, there is not much leeway in answering that question, nor is there much leeway in answering the question who Jesus' mother was in the Bible. You'd do slightly better with the question whether the relationship between Frodo and Sam hinted at a homosexual relationship because some people actually do interpret it that way (the answer in this case of course is known, it's not supposed to be, the relationship is that between a master and his devoted servant, but that type of relationship is not familiar to most people today). The Bible doesn't say whether Jesus was married or not. Does that mean he wasn't? Or does it mean that it was so obvious that he would have been that it's never mentioned? We don't know - and look at how excited people can get over that question.

If you're not interested in how what you believe relates to reality, then again, that's fine but don't argue with people who do want to know.

References

  1. in more than one way: Sam was a rinbearer for a while
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Evert said:

You never deal with what the Bible (or any other source for that matter) says, you deal with people's interpretation of what it says.

I have one in front of me. Is there a problem?

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It rather does if people try to argue a point by saying "the Bible says X", yes. It does if you want to argue that it says something about reality, or want to know what exactly it says.
Maybe you're satisfied with not knowing. Good for you, but then don't argue if someone else does want to know.

If someone wants to know something easily verifiable, they should go verify it and stop asking for opinions. Even my old pastor in Winnipeg told us several times from the pulpit not to believe what he said unless we went and verified it for ourselves.

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How is it not relevant what you belief if you're discussing what you belief?

If I'm discussing what I believe, it might be. But if I'm discussing what I believe, I'd be discussing the reasons anyway.

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A book doesn't care about anything. It's just a book. I'd place the Bible in that category, wouldn't have thought that you would, but ok.

It's got paper. The paper has words. There's a cover. It's translated to a language I understand. How is it different from any other history book?

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Your example is flawed,[1] unless you say there is no real distinction between the Bible and the Lord of the Rings

For the purposes of this discussion, there isn't. That's why I'm going to examples from different books; everyone has a brain fart and loses 50 IQ points as soon as there's a religion angle. Fine; remove the religion, ask the question again. And yes, I know Sam bore the ring on occasion; I picked that on purpose. :)

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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I think Evert is more concerned about the fact that several groups have different and contradictory opinions on what the Bible actually says. In many cases, they can support their interpretations quite convincingly. How is someone who hasn't spent half their life studying the Bible to know which group is right about what the Bible says?

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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How is someone who hasn't spent half their life studying the Bible to know which group is right about what the Bible says?

Especially considering some people spend all their lives studying it and still don't know.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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LennyLen said:

Especially considering some people spend all their lives studying it and still don't know.

That's my plan!

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I think Evert is more concerned about the fact that several groups have different and contradictory opinions on what the Bible actually says. In many cases, they can support their interpretations quite convincingly. How is someone who hasn't spent half their life studying the Bible to know which group is right about what the Bible says?

Spot on, thank you.
I thought I was fairly clear and elaborate about that, but perhaps not...

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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In many cases, they can support their interpretations quite convincingly.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Are we still talking about omnipotence? ??? :-*

Anyway. I'll support Evert here in why what the Bible says is mostly irrelevant in terms of this discussion.

  • Job 42:2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted."


  • Hebrews 6:18 "It is impossible for God to lie."

Now before all you atheists scream "contradiction!" that's not what I'm getting at. It's easy to reconcile either viewpoint such that it makes sense, and quite often (usually) it's not that big of a stretch.

One Christian might say, yes God can lie but he won't.

Another one may say, no God cannot lie because it is against his nature.

And both are using the Bible as their source. So what appears to be cut and dry "God cannot lie" all of a sudden becomes a hot topic for debate even among Christians.

And we are dealing with translated and hand copied texts, so the English nuances aren't even probably the same as in the original. So they each find some scholar of ancient Greek and Hebrew to defend their view.

So, to get back to the point, when one wants to discuss what Christians believe, the only thing you can do is base it on what people who identify themselves as Christians say they believe.

Actually, I guess I don't even know what the point of this is, but I wrote it, so I'm going to post it. >:(

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Are we still talking about omnipotence? ??? :-*

No, we were discussing reading comprehension.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Evert said:

I happen to personally disagree with you about unexplainable. Note that I didn't say unknowable but unknown.

You could be right. Let me channel someone and see if I can get them to explain it.

I'd like to make a statement that is the mother of all statements. This statement will change every aspect of your life. It will impact every ounce of your dignity, and will dissolve every useless activity you participate in. My statement will make other statements seem petty. Some people will not like my statement. Some people will not agree with it. Some people will rejoice.

How you react is up to you. All I know is that my statement is the mother of all statements, and it is going to shake every aspect of who you think you are. It will change what you see in the world. The color of the world will change.

This is my statement. Reality is a hoax. It was manufactured according to an advanced set of technological sciences and laws which are not of this Earth. Earth itself is a plane, not a planet. You are a character and not a person. Rather than a soul, you have a program -- an existent scale of technology that is in need of a new science.

Earth plane has been compromised by rogue programmers who have corrupted the operational codes and hi-jacked the plane. They have been here for a long time.

Ultimately you are living in a technological universe. A technological universe. I know all this is true because I invented this reality. I programmed it. I also invented the human form. I am the architect.

I did warn you that my statement would impact every aspect of your life. Your existence. Reject or remorse. Deny or deaths. It is up to you -- I don't care.

My concern right now, is that as many people as possible hear the truth. Reality is manufactured. You are a technology, and God is an implanted code. Death represents the end of your visit. Your journey. Your game.

All those belief systems. Those religions. Those secret societies... are lies. Sent to imprison you to keep you suppressed. To keep you oppressed.

Freedom is found in the technological. Truth is technological, and you are in a technological reality. My name is Talessian El-Wikosian. I am a counselor on Star Nations. Star Nations is an inter-dimensional alliance. We travel the techno-verse to build, support and develop other realities and civilizations -- such as the human civilization -- as is needed, as is required. It is time for Earth's reality to become technologically aware. That biology now fades and gives way to technology.

Everything that happens is programmed to happen, either naturally or artificially. Some time ago a bunch of programmers decoded and decided to take over the course of humanity. They learned how to manipulate the technology. They learned how to program the codes we taught them, but they became corrupt. These rogue programmers have plunged Earth into war, filled society with disease, divided nations with fear and distrust, and orchestrated major world events.

Whoa whoa whoa.. I'm going to cut him off. Doesn't he sound psychotic? :o

(Feel free to message me if you feel otherwise) ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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That whacky tobaccy is gonna turn your tongue white. :-X

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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dang derezo it's too early in the morning for that green stuff ;)

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I was going to start puffing the magic dragon again on the equinox, but decided to postpone that sacred ritual for the solstice.

I actually wrote that out from an old video that was removed from YouTube by the thought police. The remainder is about twice as long.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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Bible Inconsistencies
Whoever wrote the bible wasn't taking very good notes. :P

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Whoever wrote the bible wasn't taking very good notes. :P

It was a bunch of people, not just one. Such as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Actually those first three did take notes, and John's story is wildly different.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Stop. Feeding. The. Trolls. >:(

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Valid objections aren't trolling. Unless you define the "Programming Questions" forum to be a troll circus.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Valid objections aren't trolling.

Yours or his? I honestly can't tell ...

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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It's so important to you that you're logged in twice?

{"name":"6T7n1.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/8\/2\/82123998faaf2dbfb81f24ba09cc32a0.png","w":809,"h":99,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/8\/2\/82123998faaf2dbfb81f24ba09cc32a0"}6T7n1.png

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I'm at work and my browser is probably still open at home. I'd be surprised if I wasn't normally on there twice. Why; you stalking me? ;)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I like to browse the Online Members to see what the interesting topics are. The guests are often open to some very interesting pages from several years ago. If only we could torrent the archives <sigh>.

[EDIT]

I do this a couple times a week, and never saw anyone logged on twice.

[EDIT2]

If you're logged on at home, how do you avoid getting "unlogged"? If I get lost in another world coding, I find that I'm automatically logged off a.cc after an hour or two.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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He's actually active on both sessions. That's why he appears twice. I'm always logged in at both too and I don't show up both times. :-/ The next question is how is he active on both sessions if one is j0rb and the other is home... :-/

As for staying logged in, there is a checkbox that you have to click when you login (and optionally, modify the IP mask if your IP changes frequently).



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