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A question to all the married men
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I've heard that stats show that couples who live together are more likely to get divorced than couples that don't (though logically you wouldnt think so).

I've heard the research shows that living together is not good if you plan on getting married

You know what's really striking? Everyone who gets a divorce got married first. :o
So if you're worried about going through a divorce, then what you should most definitely not do is get married.

I would be highly suspicious of such "studies" without knowing a lot more about what they tested, how they tested it and what their control groups look like. I have heard the anecdotal story that getting married can kill your relationship: couples who have been together 10+ years before marrying and break up within six months of getting married.
What I do know for sure is this: getting married is not a method of curing your relationship if things are heading for rough water. Neither is having babies, yet people try both these things to safe a floundering relationship (who wants to work out their problems if they can have a miracle cure?).

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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During a very rough patch in our marriage, we discussed divorce. We had pre-marital sessions where we decided "divorce" was the equivalent of a dropping the f-bomb, and should never be used, whether in humor or seriously. Nonetheless, we discussed it anyway, because everything was going really bad. It was even perfectly plausible to believe after we split that we would find someone else and be happy, as if that was the solution to our problems.

Ultimately, I decided good or bad, "I'm with you and that's the way it's going to be". After all, I did vow "till death do us apart." But, to remove cliche and religious limitations, I said we have to at least wait until the uncontrolled events around us that are causing our current misery have subdued and we have experienced better times before considering to bring this matter up again.

We're still recuperating from those rougher times, but we are quite a bit happier and excited to bring our first child into the world. Though I do sometimes find myself envying other relationships, I believe that is really just human nature. There is no question about my love for my wife, that much I've determined is unconditional. Even in the rough times I would do anything to make her life better, which is why divorce came up in the first place.

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Trumgottist
Member #95
April 2000
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Also, no sex before marriage is silly.

No, it isn't.

--
"I always prefer to believe the best of everybody - it saves so much time." - Rudyard Kipling

Play my game: Frasse and the Peas of Kejick

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

Yes, it is. My parents have had sex before marriage all their life (and still do). Never hurt them...

(though logically you wouldnt think so)

I'd think so. Living together means you notice each others 'imperfections' more often. That leads into fights and so on... Living separately doesn't create an environment for those things.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Also, no sex before marriage is silly.

You ought to be glad your ancestors living before the invention of marriage didn't think so.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Evert said:

You know what's really striking? Everyone who gets a divorce got married first.

That is the only statistically relevant thing in this thread.

Things people commonly divorce over (money, infidelity, child rearing, abuse) are not affected very much by living together prior to marriage. i.e., Losing your job in five years has nothing to do with whether or not you moved in together first. Likewise, after time, your wife will be less attractive than younger women regardless of whether or not you moved in together prior to marriage.

Of course living together speeds up the relationship to the point where boredom of each other will set in faster, if that were to be a problem. But other than that, I don't really see how living together first helps you notice the major problems that cause divorces. (Unless one of those divorce causing things happen while you are living together, but then just refer to Evert's comment.)

And having sex before marriage only hurts marriages because the married guy will realize that he no longer gets it as much, and as such, has a good and valid reason to cheat. 8-)

Oh, and one other thing, I think a common reason for marriages that quickly (< 3 years) end up in divorce is that the man was pressured by the women to get married, so he did, just because he hadn't found any one else better yet. i.e., The marriage was the only way to temporarily extend the relationship, which was always going to be doomed.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Life is not like a study. You're an idiot if you think so.

The human mind, how the people feel interactively, that are things one can only live by himself.

There is a manual, still it only says "go, man, go !!"

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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My 0.02$: The best explanation for the relationship between pre-marital cohabitation and divorce would be a hidden variable. The type that refuses to live together without being married is often also the type that tries to avoid a divorce at all cost. And conversely, those who are more casual about marriage will have no problem living together whether they're married or not, and they will be equally casual about divorcing, the only real obstacle being the associated price tag.
And this basically means that such a study, no matter what the outcome, is pretty much worthless for all intents and purposes.

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Me make music: Triofobie
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james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Tobias, I think you've got it spot on.

Also remember that some partners will not divorce no matter how dire their circumstances because they hold marriage as sacred agreement with God, even if they would be fully justified in getting divorced. This can be just as tragic as divorce.

superstar4410
Member #926
January 2001
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Very true Tobais

Don't take yourself too seriously, but do take your responsibilities very seriously.

OnlineCop
Member #7,919
October 2006
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My wife and I knew each other for a few months before I proposed. Then we set a long engagement (6 months) to really get to know each other and make sure it was "right." At 24, we were virgins when we got married. We're coming onto 7 years now.

If your first worry in getting into marriage is "when will this end in divorce?" then it's not the right marriage. Ignore the statistics: they just tell you what other people think you aught to do since it's the norm.

Screw the norm; make your own decisions.

We've had 4 fights in our entire marriage, and 6 disagreements. None have been about money, since we established early on what we planned to do with the money, rich or poor. Only a handful of the disagreements had to do with kids (how many, how to discipline them, whether to homeschool or public school them), and they were minor discussions that we compromised on.

As my fiance, I took her to pick out rings. She did the "smart thing" and gave me about 5 options to choose between, and left me to make my own decision based on what would (and simply would NOT) look good on her. The relationship was only just talking about marriage in passing terms; nothing set in stone at that point.

And if you want to get married at church, by all means, get married in a church, with everyone's blessing. You don't need a shotgun wedding (drive through at Vegas is NOT a wedding), and if you're going to do it "the right way" by abstaining until marriage, you will be happier for it (IMHO):

video

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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That guy in the video just makes me puke.

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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I agree with torhu. I find that guy in the video somewhat sickening.

He has a pre-set value: no sex before marriage; and he has made up a bogus theory to justify this a priori value. The whole video is about him spewing propaganda for his made up theory. I find his theory to be narrow minded, and a little bit insulting to my gender and my way of life.

I have been with my partner for over eight years now, and we never intend to marry, and we understand that we may or may not stay together for the rest of our lives. I don't feel like we are in any way 'messed up' by our relationship – nor are we in any danger of being messed up.

All this crap in the video about 'imprinting' 'focusing on the girl' doesn't really have anything to do with marriage anyway. He talks as though sex before marriage is all about lust and one night stands, and thus men – who are allegedly a weak minded gender – will be imprinted with some kind of evil message about how sex works... but marriage somehow prevents this from happening. But the reality is that whether people love each other or not is independent on whether they are married. Many couples love before marriage; many never marry at all; and many couples marry for a kind of love which is short-lived, and might as well be called lust. So the guy's whole point about sex before marriage being dangerous, and sex after marriage being emotionally safe, is a flawed argument. In my opinion, the real point he should be making is this "Don't treat your partner as a sex object. Treat them with respect." That's the point he is dancing around; but he just dresses it up like it has something to do with marriage. It doesn't.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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He has a pre-set value ... and he has made up a bogus theory to justify this a priori value.

Sounds like he'd fit in with the scientific community then. 8-)

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I concur with the idea that sex before marriage is good.

Interviewer: "So, you want a programming job. Have you ever programmed before?"
Me: "No, one time I saw a GWBasic listing in a 'Creative Computing' magazine back in 1984 and it made me sick!"
Interviewer: "Perfect! We won't have to make you unlearn a bunch of bad habits then!"

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Just where is it in the Bible that God says we shouldn't have sex before marriage? Can anyone actually tell me that? I don't think so, because it comes from the teachings of churches, and not the teaching of Christ. It must turn a lot of people off to Christianity when churches teach their own doctrine instead of Christ's.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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It's quite clear that fornication and adultery are forbidden in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testament. Of course, if you can redefine those terms to exclude whatever you are doing as a good, moral Christian, then continue to feel good about yourself.

I should add that I think the only teachings on the subject directly from Jesus is basically that he equated the sin with lusting ... not the act of sex itself. So he took even a more strict view than "sex before marriage is bad," although he didn't believe in radical punishment (stoning) for it. He also considered sex among remarried (previously divorced) people as adultery.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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No mention of marriage there...

No one was around to officiate for Adam and Eve, so they had to have a kid out of wedlock.

But considering a man was killed by God for spilling his baby powder on the ground, I think you're on to something. We should all be making tons of babies 24/7. >:(

Quote:

If you define fornication as sex without love, then sure I think it's wrong, however if you define fornication as sex before marriage, I think you're wrong.

So by your logic, you think Jesus taught that two lovers who aren't married should have sex, at the same time as teaching that two lovers who are on their second marriage are committing adultery?

So either Jesus was terribly inconsistent, or you just don't want to adhere to the parts of the Holy Bible you don't agree with.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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No one was around to officiate for Adam and Eve, so they had to have a kid out of wedlock.

But who married their kids? Adam and Eve? "Til death do you part. I now pronounce you brother and sister, er, man and wife!"

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Somewhere in the evolutionary past, whether in Genesis or before, brothers and sisters were getting it on.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I googled +brothers +sisters +"getting it on" site:youtube.com, thinking I'd find old clips of Soul Train, but I found a bunch of stuff I'd rather not go to...

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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But considering a man was killed by God for spilling his baby powder on the ground, I think you're on to something.

I believe he was killed more for the fact that he refused to have children with a woman he had just married. (Alluding to the fact that he married her for lust instead of love.) That was also before grace was made available by Christ's sacrifice.

But I also don't believe that just because you have sex, you should automatically have children as well. Sex can be a token of love, and I don't believe there's anything wrong with showing love without also wanting to have children.

Mathhew Leverton said:

So by your logic, you think Jesus taught that two lovers who aren't married should have sex, at the same time as teaching that two lovers who are on their second marriage are committing adultery?

Divorce without repentance is considered a sin, yes. So until the divorce was forgiven, they were still technically married and would have therefore been committing adultery. I never said the Bible endorsed pre-marital sex, only that it never forbade it. And I will argue that you can have sex without being a fornicator as well.

But who married their kids? Adam and Eve? "Til death do you part. I now pronounce you brother and sister, er, man and wife!"

There was more than one 'day' where God created humans. Adam and Eve weren't the only human beings on the planet at that time. Remember how Cain was exiled and took a wife in a foreign land? How could he have done that if there weren't other people around? I can't give you a complete Biblical proof of it, but you probably wouldn't want one anyway.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Remember how Cain was exiled and took a wife in a foreign land? How could he have done that if there weren't other people around? I can't give you a complete Biblical proof of it, but you probably wouldn't want one anyway.

So, why does the Bible tell us about Adam and Eve? Why were they so special, and all the other thousands of humans ignored? Maybe because that wouldn't have fit the Babylonian myth they were pirated from?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Divorce without repentance

Where does Jesus say that divorced people who say "sorry" can have sex without being adulterers?

To cut to the point, your comment of "It must turn a lot of people off to Christianity when churches teach their own doctrine instead of Christ's." is a bit hypocritical. You just think your understanding of the Bible is Christ's, despite the parts you are actually reading in and rewording and excluding to fit your viewpoint.



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