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I just got baptized - Yea!
Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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I never went to church steadily. Stayed long enough to get baptized as a baby, then there was that Christian girlfriend, and after that, found another church to get the "real" baptism, and that's about it. Congrats to the OP.

decepto
Member #7,102
April 2006
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Yeah, I grew up in a Catholic family. So my view of Baptism is probably somewhat skewed. We also had these "special" necklaces called Scapular which gave people special abilities like one-way tickets to meet their patron saints after death, and +2 damage to Undead.

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Boom!

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Congratulations, relay01.

I once dated a girl in high school who was very Christian. She was always concerned about my soul and well-being, and kept insisting that I be baptized. One day I spilled the beans and told her that I already had been, and the look of relief on her face was... priceless. ;)

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Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

One day I spilled the beans and told her that I already had been, and the look of relief on her face was... priceless.

That same thing didn't work out so well for the Insane Clown Posse.

decepto said:

If a baby isn't baptized and dies before accepting Christ, he/she will burn in hell for eternity with all of the other sinners.

You should play Dante's Inferno ;D

Erikster
Member #9,510
February 2008
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In my Lutheran church, we view baptism as a sort of welcome into the church and a dedication by the parents to raise the kid with the church. Then, when the kid is old enough and willing enough, he goes through Confirmation where he actually studies the Lutheran faith (Old and New Testaments, Large and Small Catechisms, the rise of the Protestant movement, and the Gospel (lots of focus here)).

After 1-3 years (depends on the church, I had two years), the kid is confirmed. This is where he/she formally acknowledges and accepts Christ as their savior.

Baptists really seem to hang onto the whole dunking into water thing, but what matters is where the spirit is, not the body. If a church tells me they have to baptize me because what I have done wasn't, "Good enough," I'm going to find a new church.

EDIT: Idk about the whole "will the baby go to Hell?" thing. I don't remember any text in the Bible about it.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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No, I clearly remember us kids asking about this, and the way it was told to us ...

Well, I know that's not the official stance of the Lutheran church, at least as written in its theological confessions, but I don't doubt that is how it might be presented to you in Sunday school at a given church.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Well, I know that's not the official stance of the Lutheran church, at least as written in its theological confessions, but I don't doubt that is how it might be presented to you in Sunday school at a given church.

Especially when the teachers are second generation homesteader housewives.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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OICW said:

And then they of course bring up the child in a Christian fashion. Therefore he hardly has an option to quit the church if the conditioning was extensive enough.

I left many times and came back on my own terms.

Do not mistake bringing up children based on a set of morals and examples with brain washing, fear and hate mongering. Not everyone is raised in a household that makes headlines.

My father is almost Athiest, my mother is a leading example of a modern saint--she gives everything and almost never asks for anything, she prays about everything. Her living example is what keeps me coming back to Christ, and listening to her advice--not a forceful pressure or fear of condemnation.

Supposedly, the Greek word used (baptizo, or something like that) meant a literal immersion, so again, there's not really any direct scriptural support for sprinkling babies with water.

It did, and was the same word that was used to talk about ships that sank into the water. So the "sprinkling" that some denominations is a puss-out--but it's all non-salvation related anyway, so to each his own.

I was raised as a Lutheran, and IIRC, the baptism was like a temporary "get in Heaven if you die" license.

And I'll strongly preface this by saying "to each his own" but that just sounds like a silly "religious" way of wrapping up loose ends of Christianity (someone dying who never got a chance to hear the message). It doesn't have very much foundation in biblical verses as it does our attempts to "make sense of it all."

The truth is, nobody knows.

decepto said:

So my view of Baptism is probably somewhat skewed. We also had these "special" necklaces called Scapular which gave people special abilities like one-way tickets to meet their patron saints after death, and +2 damage to Undead.

Cognitive Dissonance describes many of my feelings toward Catholicism. I don't attack the good they do, but it's unfortunately surrounding by lots of odd traditions that seem more like Greek mythology. For humorous example: Saint Kevin

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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The truth is, nobody knows.

I know a couple of people who play the lottery because "it gives them hope".

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

OnlineCop
Member #7,919
October 2006
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My religion says that you don't get baptized until you're old enough to be accountable (8 years old at least). It has to be done by someone who has the authority to actually perform the ordinance. Otherwise, it's nothing but a glorified bath.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Where is the doctrine of the age of accountability taught in the Bible, or does your religion add it in to make hell seem not so harsh? ???

And out of curiosity, what is the age of accountability for the person who never heard the gospel?

In terms of "doing bad things," David wrote: "For I was born a sinner—yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. ... Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."

So he obviously didn't buy into the whole "all babies are good" line that churches like to give to mothers.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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So he obviously didn't buy into the whole "all babies are good" line that churches like to give to mothers.

Cognitive dissonance 2, organized religion 0. 8-)

My team is winning by a land slide!

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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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I'm circumcised and I still pee on your back, witch !

That's the kind of thing who bring your silly score table to zero !

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Steve++
Member #1,816
January 2002

I had a Christian upbringing. One day my parents told be that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Some years later I figured the rest out myself. Pity about the rest of you.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Steve++ said:

I had a Christian upbringing. One day my parents told be that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Some years later I figured the rest out myself. Pity about the rest of you.

I've actually reached a level of meta-philosophy in that I think multiple truths exist--as far as the pragmatic results are concerned.

Basically, if going to church makes you feel good about yourself, enhances your friendships, and gives you success in life: go to church. If not, please try another one (for they are not all the same), but if a few attempts don't work for you try something else. Give Buddhism a try, give Hinduism, give Scientology a try. The point is living a happy, fulfilling life without having it at the expense of others.

I don't want anyone to be miserable and a failure just so that they can fit in to some group or label!

If Athiesm is your bag, more power to you. Just please don't work to take away something that works for others (religion), and I'll promise to do the same.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Crazy Photon
Member #2,588
July 2002
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Basically, if going to church makes you feel good about yourself, enhances your friendships, and gives you success in life: go to church. If not, please try another one (for they are not all the same), but if a few attempts don't work for you try something else. Give Buddhism a try, give Hinduism, give Scientology a try. The point is living a happy, fulfilling life without having it at the expense of others.

Amen.

I extend it a bit further, as even if a choice of religion works for one, it is still beneficial to give other religions a try, as you can take the best values from each of them and combine them to form your own opinion / beliefs.

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Resistance is NEVER futile...

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Hold on -- last time I checked, Lutheranism (for those who claimed to follow that) specifically states that all salvation is predestined, i.e. God has long before your birth determined your fate, and there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- you as a human can do to affect whether or not you will be saved (collectively known as divine monergism, if you're interested). Not works, not faith, not nothin'. Then they go full circle and say "but I'm sure you are one of the elect to salvation, because you have faith". Go figure.

In other words, baptism has zero bearing on your salvation in any Lutheran denomination. It's certainly not a "get out of hell free" card.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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X-G said:

Then they go full circle and say "but I'm sure you are one of the elect to salvation, because you have faith".

But it's a marker, see? They were infused with faith beforehand so they could go to heaven.

[EDIT]

Closely related; when cornered by evangalists, "God made me an atheist! Who are you to question his wisdom?"

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I've actually reached a level of meta-philosophy in that I think multiple truths exist--as far as the pragmatic results are concerned.

I think your wording is needlessly vague and complicated, but I agree with this conclusion: people should choose whatever makes them most comfortable in living their daily lives. If that means they believe in something I don't, no matter how silly it seems to me, that's up to them. Live and let live.

With the side remark that that freedom of course has to go both ways. "I" don't hinder "you" in practicing "your" believes, "you" don't intrude "your" believes on me. And this is where, in practice, things can get complicated. If "you" think, based on your believes, that euthanasia (say) or homosexuality are "wrong", am "I" shoving "my" (lack of) believe down "your" throat when "I" say these things should not be forbidden, or do "you" impose "your" believe on "me" when you say they should be?
In theory, separation of church and state should at least somewhat take care of that, in that no particular belief should form the basis for legislation. In practice, it's of course not simple.

Quote:

if going to church makes you feel good about yourself, enhances your friendships, and gives you success in life: go to church. If not, please try another one (for they are not all the same)

Something I had not realised before going to North America is that "church" there has a much broader community and social function than it does where I grew up, where most of the social and community aspects are covered by secular institutions.
When debating "going to church", that's an important thing to keep in mind, because "going to church" does not mean the same thing to all people, either individually or collectively.

EDIT

Closely related; when cornered by evangalists, "God made me an atheist! Who are you to question his wisdom?"

Oh, I've said "thank God I'm an atheist" on several occasions. Very tongue in cheek.

relay01
Member #6,988
March 2006
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Closely related; when cornered by evangalists, "God made me an atheist! Who are you to question his wisdom?"

Only an evangelist who has no knowledge of scripture would be stumped by that. Also I highly doubt you were always an atheist. You can blame your childhood beliefs on ignorance but I could say it's relative innocence and you've since been corrupted. Although I'm mostly with David's Psalms i.e. what Matthew referred to earlier which is why I use the term "relative innocence".

Anyway Thanks all for your congrats.

_____________________________________

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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relay01 said:

I highly doubt you were always an atheist. You can blame your childhood beliefs on ignorance but I could say it's relative innocence and you've since been corrupted.

http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/603954/863944#target

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Evert said:

With the side remark that that freedom of course has to go both ways.

Unfortunately, I think that because of this (which is obviously true), the statement that one should just "live and let live" does not hold water. It is true that as long as you are harming no one with your actions, you should be able to do as you wish and hold whatever opinion you wish. That much we must grant any person.

But we have to be careful that we don't interpret that to mean that anyone is immune to criticism or debate. You being allowed to think homosexuality is evil also means I must be allowed to think your opinion is evil and dangerous to our society, and to want to legislate against you making action of your opinion. I guess one tends to forget that there is such a thing as solidarity: just because I am not personally affected by your hideous opinion doesn't mean I should therefore not care about it. I'm not homosexual, but I will still strongly argue against anyone who claims homosexuality is evil.

This stretches to territory that might be a bit sensistive. For instance, should we intervene if someone is teaching their children harmful and blatantly untrue things about the cosmos? We do intervene when parents are harming their children in more direct ways. Leaving aside for the moment the issue of who decides what is harmful, I think it would be negligent for us not to at least intervene verbally and point out that parents may be doing harm to their children. At worst, words do not hurt, so I can't see why we shouldn't be justified in saying it, at least.

It's complicated.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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relay01 said:

Only an evangelist who has no knowledge of scripture would be stumped by that. Also I highly doubt you were always an atheist. You can blame your childhood beliefs on ignorance but I could say it's relative innocence and you've since been corrupted. Although I'm mostly with David's Psalms i.e. what Matthew referred to earlier which is why I use the term "relative innocence".

If you actually think that and weren't just trying to prove some point, I'd think you were full of yourself. Specially that corrupted bit.

Makes me laugh that one group will scream bloody murder when you try to push beliefs on them, but when they do it to anyone else, its OK. Yuh. Things like saying people who don't believe are somehow ignorant or corrupted ::)

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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{"name":"atheist-cartoon.gif","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/4\/b4ed647f8b6823c07fae6ebf0d9f3efe.gif","w":400,"h":529,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/4\/b4ed647f8b6823c07fae6ebf0d9f3efe"}atheist-cartoon.gif

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

relay01
Member #6,988
March 2006
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If you actually think that and weren't just trying to prove some point, I'd think you were full of yourself. Specially that corrupted bit.

Mostly just a counter-example remember, I was a very strong Atheist. Yet to hear an excuse I didn't once use.

EDIT:
Until I was filled in on Arthur's more specific reasoning for his current beliefs, I made an assumption based on his given reasoning in this thread.

I don't believe anybody comes to Christ by bashing them in the head with a cross. (as the cartoon put it) In my case, which had similarities with Arthur's case somebody in much worse shape then I ever was had to explain how seemingly unanswered prayers is not a good excuse for believing in no god.

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