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Starcraft 2
Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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I'm going under the name goaler in the north american servers. I'm a total n00b.. i'm winning about 50% of the time but i have no idea how to do a proper build order. I'm basically lucking out on a bit of n00by micro and fast void rays.

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james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

The campaign has been crap so far. I originally selected "normal" difficulty, and everything was so ridiculously easy that it wasn't even fun. I then changed to "hard" and it was way beyond my ability to the point of being frustrating and tedious. I also can't stand the fact that you can select the difficulty of each mission (and have always been against this in all games): it totally devalues your progress through the campaign.

The characters are so corny its cringe-worthing, and the game runs extremely poorly on the final missions, no matter how powerful your PC is.

Worst of all, the game brings nothing new to the genre apart from a guarantee for extremely well balanced multiplayer. But considering that they've abandoned all the huge strides they made in gameplay with Wc3 (I don't care what you say, having to spend most of your time managing macro is mind-numbingly boring and tedious) I don't think I'm going to bother getting into the multiplayer.

The only reason why my expectations for Diablo 3 are still high is the fact that they it has been developed by totally independent Blizzard teams.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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The characters are so corny its cringe-worthing, and the game runs extremely poorly on the final missions, no matter how powerful your PC is.

I recommend this game if you have the computer to run it, although finding a copy might be rare now. I have one.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I don't care what you say, having to spend most of your time managing macro is mind-numbingly boring and tedious

That's very much a personal opinion. Some of us find the micro-managing click-fest to be mind-numbingly boring and tedious.

But a good RTS should balance macro- and micro- management. This has always been my biggest problem with the original SC, it doesn't matter how well you can macro-manage[1], if you can't micro very well, you get your ass handed to you.

References

  1. unless your opponent is a complete moron

Jeff Bernard
Member #6,698
December 2005
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I also can't stand the fact that you can select the difficulty of each mission (and have always been against this in all games): it totally devalues your progress through the campaign.

I think that works for some games. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark are two examples of it, where the harder difficulties had additional objectives for each level. I don't remember, though, if the AI was any better or not for the harder difficulties (they prolly were), but I'm guessing that's how Starcraft 2 does the different difficulties, which I agree is a bad way of doing it. Basically, if each level has a choice of difficulties, then the harder ones should require the player to actually do more (or do something in a different, harder to figure out way), not just put the player at an even worse disadvantage.

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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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My roommate got it; the dialogue is terrible and the cinema animations made him go into the Options menu and make sure his graphics settings weren't all at Low (they were all at Ultra ... wtf). Actual gameplay is nice though. When do the Zerg and Protoss campaigns come out?

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Hard Rock
Member #1,547
September 2001
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According to this:

http://kotaku.com/5599005/everything-we-know-about-the-next-starcraft-game

Sometime in 2012 for Zerg. Protoss will probably be a bit later.

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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Ouch. That's a lot longer than I imagined.

Quote:

Will Wings of Liberty owners be able to play against Heart of the Swarm players?
One school of thought is that, despite the three games having different campaigns, the multiplayer sections of all three StarCraft II releases would be compatible with each other. That's not the case. A Blizzard representative told us to expect separate multiplayer ladders for Heart of the Swarm, similar to how StarCraft Brood War had a separate multiplayer ladder from the original StarCraft.

Don't much care for that either ...

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

KnightWhoSaysNi
Member #7,339
June 2006
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Is anyone planning on creating custom maps with the map editor?

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Quote:

A Blizzard representative told us to expect separate multiplayer ladders for Heart of the Swarm

Oh great God, are the players actually buying this bullshit? I wonder how much will those "datadisks" or "episodes", as they like to call it these days, cost. If I'm not mistaken HL2 episodes didn't cost a full price of the HL2 game. Way to make money Blizzard...[1]

References

  1. Though, from their point of view it really is a clever move.

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Mokkan
Member #4,355
February 2004
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I've been playing my brother's copy. The writing seems fine to me. It's no Mass Effect, but it works. It also seems like a pretty fun game. I'm liking single player much more than playing on Battle.net, but it was the same thing with SC1 for me.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I like playing 2 and 3 player verses AI so far. Strategies that worked with Starcraft:BW still pan out here. I survive the first rush and by then I'm already working on siege and by then, one of us is working on battle cruisers.

I like that everyone has something more resembling a "main battle unit", whereas in the original, it felt like every race was intentionally crippled and overly dependent on having a mixed fleet.

Also, they have a lot of interface improvements over the original. Shift clicking does exactly what you feel it should do, and queing up construction sites leave placeholders so you can stack them better. Grouping units doesn't have size limits (ABOUT TIME.).

They simplified the tech tree and made it more straight-forward. I never had problems with it, but it's still much less hassle (no more "build a science building just to get level 2 armor" junk). And you can query technology upgrades. You can group select flying buildings. You can easily set rally points for produced units to any task (namely mining, but also repairing bunkers). SCV's AUTO REPAIR (about freaking time!). Siege Tanks have two different keys to deploy and un-deploy so you don't accidentally do the wrong one. The keys are always available even when other non-siege units are in your group. You can deploy (by accident) and hit un-deploy while they're still changing, they'll start to un-deploy as soon as they finish. There is resource trading, however chatting is an extremely slow, unresponsive, and delayed process that becomes impossible if there are tons of units on the screen--which is exactly when you'd need to warn your friends. But voice communication is essential these days, anyway.

It runs like complete piss on my computer, however. My processor is more than enough, however, I'm left with an onboard GeForce. So once the polygons fly, the framerate crawls. They also did a poor job of offering low polygon models for budget computers because even with completely washed-out textures it still barely runs 10 frames per second. So I would imagine it's a polygon count issue.

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GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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Is anyone planning on creating custom maps with the map editor?

I am. Last night I threw together a quick test map that was a 2-player co-op. Worked super well. I also made a campaign map I liked in phase 1 of the beta but phase 2 kind of broke it. :(

Chris, you pointed out some of the positives I like about the second game over the first one. Another fun one that I learned from a YouTube tutorial is that you can select a tank in siege mode (or several), hold down shift, [unsiege, right-click to move elsewhere and resiege] in under a second and the tanks will execute all three commands while you're already off doing something else. Very micro friendly.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I'm going to post some interesting comments from today's Penny Arcade, which may constitute flamebait but let's see who agrees and disagrees. Safe to say I basically agree, at least now that I've seen the whole game. I won't be buying Wings of Liberty; still hoping Heart of the Swarm is worth my money.

Quote:

I eventually played enough Starcraft that I wanted to try Company of Heroes Online or reinstall one of the Dawn of War games, which I'm sure is an act of villainy. It's very difficult not to be tantalized (read: manipulated) by the presentation of this software, and I've chosen to be manipulated for my own entertainment, enjoyment, and return on investment, but that is is a matter quite apart from being ignorant of the gulf between Starcraft II and what constitutes the state of the art.

Again: you can't not like it. I'm not an absolute jerk. They've leveraged the oldest verbs of RTS to give us a highly calculated, almost algorithmically "satisfying" form of amusement. But to the extent that the game is different - outside of the Wing Commander cribbing and the rancid script - those differences are beyond my level of play.

Warcraft III was, by comparison, chockablock with innovations and crazy bullshit - the sort of prayerful long pass that a company with Blizzard's talent and resources can bring to fruition. I don't know who else is supposed to take these chances. Beyond its narrative strengths, which were manifold, its technological and philosophical bones gave rise to Defense of the Ancients, which I've argued constitutes an entirely new genre. It was a game so bold that it contained games within it. Where is that bold heart?

For the consumer, maybe "polish" is - as an ideal - the highest calling of the medium. I'm not satisfied with that. At our best we advocate with our selections, curating it thereby. In that spirit, let us be clear with one another. We may call Starcraft II "old school," the electronic equivalent of comfort food, and these things are not untrue in the particulars. But there is a safety in thought and deed here that borders on cowardice.

In related news, my WoW account ends this week. All those epics, gone. :'(

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

I totally agree with you. You have succinctly expressed and substantiated my feelings on the matter.

Samuel Henderson
Member #3,757
August 2003
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In related news, my WoW account ends this week. All those epics, gone. :'(

Oh, they aren't gone. After your account ends it goes into 'stasis' where your characters and epics are still there, just inaccessible. That way you can pick up a gamecard (or plunk down your credit card) six months down the road, log in and your toon and all your epics will be there...

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Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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SC2 has much better pathing, grouping, and micro-ing abilities. For instance, when i spawn workers I dont need to manually send them to the mineral field. This gives me a lot of hope for not sucking :) But if you want to win you still have to micro very well.

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Bah weep granah weep nini bong!

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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I don't have to micro well. I'm only in gold. :) People in our division don't focus as much on that. And of course, thanks to the wonderful matching system, I still win half my games, which is perfect.

When I want to rank higher, I think I'll learn a little bit more about micro-ing, like blinking out weak Stalkers, which is actually kind of fun for me. I just don't research Blink often enough.

Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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It would be nice if you didn't have to micro at all (blink out weak stalkers for instance), but configure them and give them actions (like dragon age).

For instance just set it something like:
unit: stalker
condition: shields < 10%
action: retreat from combat to nearest base, use blink if possible.

or:

unit: stalker
condition: being attacked by melee
action: blink away from attacker

I think the UI and the amount of micro management from SC1 have definitely improved, but not enough. Every time I play I find great areas of improvement for usability. It's very annoying.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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If they did that it wouldn't be the same game. A person could play competently by just copy-pasting some macros from www.starcraftbotsftw.com or something. If you want a game like that, find one with robots that you can fully customize their physical and mental construction and pit against other robots (or armies of robots) with custom bodies, attacks, and behavior.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I have to say this, though perhaps I'm repeating myself:

I'm appalled that I'm going to have to pay THREE TIMES for Starcraft (that's assuming I do pay). Though, optimistically, they'll be adding a huge amount of content and not just systematically unlocking single player units.

I'm offended by the lack of LAN support, though it's a aesthetic issue because playing two or three computers over broadband isn't affected at all. Perhaps 8 player will be strain broadband connections and become a logistical issue. They may patch it in the future to allow LAN, but this is Blizzard and not Id Software, so I'm doubtful in that optimism.

However, as a balanced game, I love it. I never got into WC3 because it felt so weird, and I hated the idea of heroes in multiplayer--it completely took away any sense of tactical realism for me. Armies do not have heroes! But Starcraft 2 is balanced, and every team has new and exciting units, but at the same time feels true to the original. It's what a twelve-year sequel should be: I feel at home, and excited by the newness at the same time.

Look only a few months back, and I was one of the most outspoken opponents of both Blizzard and the new Starcraft--and I still hold on to my points as valid. But I didn't expect to love the gameplay so much. I've played 4 2v2 games so far against human opponents. The first we died miserably. The second two we won amazingly close and fun games. The fourth, the protoss built towers in our base ( >:( ), and we lost. But being terran and somewhat annoyed, so we made them work for their meal. The game went on, and even in losing, I had a good time with the friendly players.

And that reminds me, while 4 games is hardly a valid sample of the population, I immediately noticed that the userbase acting more adult, civilized, and professional than Call of Duty or Halo.

If PennyArcade doesn't like it, they're welcome to it, but Starcraft 2 is not at all a dreamcrusher like Indiana Jones 4 or some other far off sequel.

Goalie Ca said:

SC2 has much better pathing, grouping, and micro-ing abilities.

YES! I love that you can set rally points on mineral fields. It makes everything so much more elegant. I don't play modern RTS games (because I don't care about them?) but this one has so many straight-forward features I never even thought of.

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relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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I personally don't get why people get up in arms about the zerg and protoss campaigns being released as expansions. The SC1 had 30 single player missions and SC2 has 29. It's not as if they divided the game in three; they made it three times bigger.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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YES! I love that you can set rally points on mineral fields. It makes everything so much more elegant. I don't play modern RTS games (because I don't care about them?) but this one has so many straight-forward features I never even thought of.

Age of Empires II had it, and that's from 11 years ago :P

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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though it's a aesthetic issue because playing two or three computers over broadband isn't affected at all.

It would be if one of those players was me. ;)

My gf and I sometimes play SC against each other over our network. Doing do via bnet would be impossible.

ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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I personally don't get why people get up in arms about the ...

Hey some people enjoy getting up in arms! We don't judge you for your extra curricular activities.



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