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Starcraft 2
mEmO
Member #1,124
March 2001
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To complicate matters, what your opponent doesn't have in his base also helps. That he seemingly only had a gateway and a cybernetics core at that point in the game should definitely raise some alarms.

Yeah, that's why I pushed out when I did (right before the rays). I was expecting some proxy gateway action, since I hadn't seen the second gas.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Observers are expensive and too late to subvert early attacks (and force me to delay my void rays by spending resources on an otherwise useless-to-me robotics facility), sensor sweeps are good but I don't play terran that much, and anything else just tends to get blocked off by ramp walls.

And say that he kills my scout with a marine, or two zerglings. What am I supposed to glean from that? (Aside from the fact that I can't pay attention to what is killing the scout all the time -- I have to build my base, too.)

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GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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X-G said:

Observers are expensive and too late to subvert early attacks (and force me to delay my void rays by spending resources on an otherwise useless-to-me robotics facility)

For Protoss, if you'd rather avoid the 200/100 cost of the robotics facility and the 50/100 of the observer, research hallucination for 100/100. Hopefully you're using at least one sentry a few minutes in anyway, so you'll get free scouts (for 100 energy) whenever you want.

Quote:

And say that he kills my scout with a marine, or two zerglings. What am I supposed to glean from that?

That he didn't attack you with a reaper. And if he does, that scout more than paid for itself. Ideally, you'd like to see if he makes a second barracks or goes for a factory. You don't party with zerglings though. You run. If you see just 2, then be suspicious. If you see 6, then be ready shortly for 10. Also, if you don't see an extractor once a spawning pool is finished, you should anticipate a heavy rush. More than that, there's also a chance that he'll mix the zerglings with banelings so make sure you get another peek at his base two minutes later (for zerg it's easier since they can't really wall off). Perhaps needless to say, for Protoss, the most valuable scouting information is what building he builds right after his cybernetics core.

If you're playing against terran who's walling off, consider hiding your scv in a far corner of his base for a minute or two. Then scout his base again to see what's going on.

Edit: Ah. I was able to attach a replay file with IE8.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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I hear a lot of "the chance is" or "he might" or "be suspicious". It still sounds like a crapshoot to me. And if all I do is respond to what he does, I can't win anyway. So what do I do in the meantime, other than roll the dice and hope that what I produced counters what he has produced?

Also, I've faced zerg that wall off quite well -- they just place two or three queens on top of the ramp with a few zerglings in front. Not quite as fast as a terran or protoss can do it, but still hard to get through.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Yeah I just can't build up an army, pay attention to scouts, memorize where all the other players are, what they are doing, and build a defense while resource hunting, in 2-5 minutes. just can't do it.

If I get attacked before say 5-10 minutes its a bloody rush :P

Exactly. How the hell am I supposed to build my base while fending off basic units pouring into my base (just two Zealots in the original SC were able to take down my Terran base) all the while scouting my opponent. Not to mention targetting specific units during a battle (i.e. focusing fire), using special abilities and building my base and new units. This way I can play Diablo and have a same clickfest.

My wife is awesome, she bought me SCII for my birthday... I have no idea how she even knew that was a game I wanted, but she managed to get the right one and completely surprised me.

Maybe she crawled up to this forum and found out about your Starcraft addiction ;) or maybe she found out Starcraft and Brood war boxes in your home? :)

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james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Serious scouting is only of real use when you've played all races and you have at least a vague understanding of each. At least this is what I found in Wc3 - scouting allows you confirm common courses of action.

At the moment a Terran or Zerg base looks like a generic mash of buildings to me - with my current understanding of other races, the only real use of scouting is to find out where their army is or whether or not they are expanding.

The other thing that really bothers me is this: what counters what also depends on the size of the army. For example, zealots might counter marines early on, but mass marines will massacre mass zealots before they even get close.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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OICW said:

Exactly. How the hell am I supposed to build my base while fending off basic units pouring into my base (just two Zealots in the original SC were able to take down my Terran base) all the while scouting my opponent. Not to mention targetting specific units during a battle (i.e. focusing fire), using special abilities and building my base and new units. This way I can play Diablo and have a same clickfest.

They can.

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It's scary to see how their hands move through the keyboard, and not doing random nonsense.

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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote:

They can.

I think this is my response to most of the comments here, and by "they" I mean your opponents, not the Koreans. You can't build your base while fending off basic units? Well where are your basic units? Defending is cheaper than attacking; you should have the easy job ffs. :)

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Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Actually, most of my problems with RTS' aren't my APM, but rather that I just can't keep like 5 alternate strategic logics working at the same time(gathering, expanding, teching, scouting, attacking) like OICW pointed out. If the RTS keeps simplifying stuff like Gathering(in SC2, you can just rally point the command center to the minerals), then maybe I can keep up better. Adding unit queues and tech queues helped me as well. But still, it ain't a good strategy to queue up a lot since you're eating lots of minerals earlier.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Dario ff: thank you, I have a life. I want to play for recreation. Not grind my clicking skills 8 hours a day. >:(

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relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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Queuing in general is a bad idea. If you have enough minerals to fill a queue you should build more production buildings instead. In low level games, I'd say keeping average unspent minerals low is more important than keeping APM high.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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OICW said:

Dario ff: thank you, I have a life. I want to play for recreation. Not grind my clicking skills 8 hours a day.

You asked how you were supposed to do it. ;)

EDIT: Just wondering, how are the leagues named for these insanely skilled people on B.NET?

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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Dario ff said:

You asked how you were supposed to do it. ;)

Pretty much. Some people want a hard game. APM doesn't really matter that much in our league; just learn to multitask.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that I am by no means good at this game. But when I lose, I know why, and it usually boils down to "I'm bad".

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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But when I lose, I know why, and it usually boils down to "I'm bad".

And when I loose I also know I'm bad, but I don't know the details :P

I really can't focus on more than a couple complex tasks at a time or my head starts spinning. Just get frustrated, my attention span shortens, and ability to think straight goes out the window.

I pretty much am incapable of playing some of these games :D

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I really can't focus on more than a couple complex tasks at a time or my head starts spinning. Just get frustrated, my attention span shortens, and ability to think straight goes out the window.

So concentrate on the things in life that you do well, and don't worry about the rest. Concentrate on that fact awhile.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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So concentrate on the things in life that you do well, and don't worry about the rest.

There is a reason I don't play games very often. Probably the last video game I played was a year ago, at a big lan party. Haven't touched one since.

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William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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I went and bought StarCraft 2 the other day after seeing a thing on the news about it. Later I realised that I probably only bought it because since there was so much enthusiasm for it I thought I'd be missing out if I didn't. Haven't taken the cellaphane off the box yet.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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And when I loose I also know I'm bad, but I don't know the details

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!! PPPSSHHH!!!!

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Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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Heh, in 3v3 I'm in the bronze league still struggling to get out and win games, but in 4v4 i'm in the platinum league and seem to not be having a problem.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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I won three straight games as terran. :D

I can't help but think it came down to the other guy not being all that good though. And as usual, I'm sitting on way too much money unspent. I can't both focus on basebuilding and micromanagement.

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james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Goalie Ca said:

Heh, in 3v3 I'm in the bronze league still struggling to get out and win games, but in 4v4 i'm in the platinum league and seem to not be having a problem.

League is pretty meaningless outside of 1v1, particularly just after your placement games.

X-G said:

And as usual, I'm sitting on way too much money unspent. I can't both focus on basebuilding and micromanagement.

Yeah, it's really a flaw in the gameplay in my opinion. Warcraft 3 is infinitely more fun because you can focus on micro for prolonged periods of time. Any argument that this requires less skill is nonsense because there is still an unlimited depth of micro one can go into.

The other thing that really makes me what to delete the game altogether is watching replays of top players in the Diamond league who do little else other than camp in their base / expo in an unassailable position (usually due to the ludicrous bonus one gets from high ground) and then, when their army peeks, come out and wtf pwn. Or even worse, when both players do this!

I was really expecting the game to grow on my as I played it more. I'm now in Platinum League for both 1v1 and 2v2, and still struggling to see why anyone would want to play something so inferior to Wc3.

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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Macro is easy with buildings hotkeyed.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Noone said it wasn't easy, the point is that it spoils the continuity of battles, it is not particularly fun and just generally detracts from gameplay. What's worse is that is that there is often the other extreme where the most tactically favourable thing for you to be doing is sitting in your base doing bugger all other than scouting the opponent and massing units. In Wc3 this "downtime" is filled by creeping which is fun and cool.

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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Queuing in general is a bad idea. If you have enough minerals to fill a queue you should build more production buildings instead.

I say that queuing is broken in this game :P In other games resources are used when units start to build, not when you queue them. I find this very annoying.

The servers seem to be very unstable. I see a lot of people complaining about servers going down in multiplayer. Also, achievements don't work since 2 or 3 days ago.

There seems to be a funny bug in the Mac version, too: with a Spanish keyboard, pressing the º key (they key next to 1) makes the game crash :P Now I wonder what kind crappy code they have for that kind of bug :-X

BTW, the achievements have just started to work again, while I was posting this.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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I say that queuing is broken in this game In other games resources are used when units start to build, not when you queue them. I find this very annoying.

Obviously this is the intended behavior. It's a way to (artificially) increase the high-end learning curve. It's not "broken", but I agree that it's annoying.



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