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You can't have enough DRM. Assassin's Creed 2
Hard Rock
Member #1,547
September 2001
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Dennis said:

Different games use different game logic, hence it is impossible to have a single patch ready at this point in time for all possible future games, unless the part of the game logic that was served online was also stored in some offline file which already comes with the game (unless, as I said, there will be different data files needed to patch the individual games).

Are you sure they have said they had a single patch ready to fix all the games? Saying they will patch games if the servers go down and saying they have it ready and working for every future title are two completely different things. From what I understand, what they have promised is if Ubisoft decides this version of DRM isn't worth pursuing, they will probably make patches to allow users to play the game. They have never said they have them ready, just that they have the ability to do so. And of course they can, they have access to the source code to do so very easily.

I just brought up the gameplay thing becuase they say they do transmit a fair amount of data constantly, and if I were going to implement such a system you might as well do it properly (I was actually toying with a couple ideas for a test project awhile back). Maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas :p.

Anyway this is all just hypothetical, it's entirely possibly they may back out and change their requirements prior to release. Who knows.

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Hard Rock
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Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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Hard Rock said:

Are you sure they have said they had a single patch ready to fix all the games?

No I'm not sure about it. The interview said: "But Ubisoft have the ability to patch the DRM out of their games.". <- From this generic statement, I assumed that the DRM is completely separated from the games logic. My whole point was that I don't believe that they have any of the essential game logic hosted on their servers (yet).

Quote:

I just brought up the gameplay thing becuase they say they do transmit a fair amount of data constantly, and if I were going to implement such a system you might as well do it properly

Yes, it would be more effective if they did host essential pieces of the games mechanics online, because then it would be truly unplayable (unless someone would go through all the hassle of writing an emulator for their routines but that would have to be done on a per-game basis which would effectively render generic cracks useless and thus theoretically (not taking leaks into consideration) increase the time between release and re-release(by crackers), giving them a (hypothetical) chance to earn more money from paying customers who would have otherwise just pirated the game (whether those hypothetical customers actually have or don't have the money is an entirely different discussion, which is why I just don't buy the often brought up argument that every pirated copy is a lost sale for them).

I'm sure this will eventually become standard in DRM/copy protection stuff. It will be effective because in that case you can't simply eliminate the calls to the check routines because that will make the game unplayable.

Sirocco
Member #88
April 2000
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It's likely that the DRM is implemented inside the binary as both a little routine that plinks the activation server every [x] minutes, and another couple of routines to support saving/loading across the net. Stripping the server check would likely be easy for someone with the proper tools and patience... the savegame thing is a little more murky and would likely require spoofing a server to 'catch' the save/load calls locally.

Either way, PC gaming sucks ass for so many reasons these days. It's just not worth it to play yet another fooking FPS, or a sh1tty Xbox port.

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Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

Dennis said:

because then it would be truly unplayable

Interestingly enough, this would make it so that only the good games get pirated. The crackers would only put effort into games they feel were worth the effort. The cruddy games would never get bought nor pirated :P

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

So, should we have a little game where we guess the timeframe in which the game will be cracked?

I'd say a month, max.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

A week from the first release date (March 5th), max.

Since I don't really care for the game, I hadn't taken the time to look at the release dates until now. The game was released for consoles 3 months before the PC release :o Three months!? I guess Ubisoft Montreal really does hate PC gaming.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Seems Ubisoft allowed downloading an official game back in 2008, and it was unplayable because there was no disk in the drive. They fixed it with a warez crack from the intranets.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/07/ubisoft-drm-snafu-reminds-us-whats-wrong-with-pc-gaming.ars

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Seems Ubisoft allowed downloading an official game back in 2008, and it was unplayable because there was no disk in the drive. They fixed it with a warez crack from the intranets.

Wow, that's really ironic. Nice find. I wonder if they even contacted Reloaded.

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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Vanneto said:

At least pirating doesn't threaten anyones lives. You cant say the same about speeding now can you? What is more immoral?

There is nothing moral nor immoral about speeding. And speeding doesn't always threaten lives anymore than not speeding. Me driving 75mph in a 65mph zone isn't immoral. It's a long straight road, and everyone else is speeding as well, so I'd go as far as to say it would be more dangerous for me to impede traffic flow and drive at 65 instead of 75, thereby being a larger threat to lives.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I do notice that people speed much more around town on Sunday night. It's a result of cruising at 80 mph for hours on 70 mph freeways for hours when returning from visiting home over the weekend (USMC), and when they suddenly find themselves in a 45 mph zone it seems like they're going so slow they could get out and walk faster.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Albin Engström
Member #8,110
December 2006
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It's very hard(if not impossible) today to make and distribute a major game without some finacial backing, this allows rich people to secure their income by contracing new developers, ofcourse, people who make a business out of games wants to take as little of a risk as possible, meaning making a game that will sell well in comparison to the work effort, effectivly reducing the chance of it being a innovative and content rich game.

To say that piracy is killing PC gaming is by lack of better words: fucking stupid.

There are 3 reasons people pirate:
1: They're greedy.
2: They don't have money.
3: They want to spend the little money they have on the "right" games.

Nobody likes the first option, but these people probably wouldn't spend much money on games if they couldn't pirate them.

The second option dosen't hurt anyone since no profit can be gained and there is no expense in the transfer of data.
For those of you who think that that the expense lies in the creation of the data should consider that that line of though would imply that the creator have a right to money before the consumer has had a chance to make a choice, i.e a demand for a piece of the pie no matter the result of the product.

The third option is in my opinion, the only thing that keeps gaming alive.
Allowing people to spend their money on what they want ensures that the money goes to what people really like, instead of making it a gamble and a battle of advertising, which helps small developers compete against the monster like competition.

Try to imagine how money and developement would flow without piracy...

It would be nightmare for games as art.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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There are 3 reasons people pirate:
1: They're greedy.
2: They don't have money.
3: They want to spend the little money they have on the "right" games.

You left out the most popular reason:

4. They can get away with it.

The majority of people I know pirate, but can afford to take vacations to Mexico and the Caribbean or can afford all name brand clothing, etc. They can afford to pay and WOULD (like they did before piracy was so convenient) if they had no other choice. This is the largest group of pirates and the ones that the entertainment industry cares the most about. They'll defend that they "can't afford it", but if you look at all of the other luxury items in their lives then it becomes clear that they can and choose not to (because they can get away with it).

In any case, "intellectual property" (for lack of a better term that we can all agree on) laws exist to protect the artists. If those who can't pay don't have to then those that can pay (and are free to spend their money where ever they want) might as well spend the money they do have on other things so that they also can't pay anymore and can then just take it like the people that couldn't pay in the first place. That clearly doesn't work for the industry so it DOES matter whether or not people who can't pay get to have it for free or not. Not being able to pay isn't an excuse to take for free. It does do harm, even if that harm isn't as quantifiable as stealing material property is.

The third option is in my opinion, the only thing that keeps gaming alive.
Allowing people to spend their money on what they want ensures that the money goes to what people really like, instead of making it a gamble and a battle of advertising, which helps small developers compete against the monster like competition.

Piracy has nothing to do with allowing people to spend their money on what they want. That's the way a free market works. You have every right to choose to not spend your money on a game, but if you choose not to then you have no right to play it. It's that simple.

Everything you're saying is just an excuse.

Try to imagine how money and developement would flow without piracy...

It would be pretty amazing. Developers would see nobody playing their game when they do a bad job and would actually get paid when they do a good job. Imagine that... :-/

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Bull-fucking-shit. I'm really waiting until people stop being douchebags advocating piracy on moral stands or any other and be honest. And by that I mean standing upright and admitting that they are doing it, because they can.

Just as there are only few movies per year really worth watching. There are only few games really worth playing each year. What are those really depends on your taste. There's not much time to spend playing games so you have to carefully pick those, which might attract you. It's not like you have to play everything. It's about playing those classics you like, looking around and when you see some new gem grab it.

end-of-rant.

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

It does do harm, even if that harm isn't as quantifiable as stealing material property is.

That's a rather hillarious statement. "It does harm, I can't say how or how much... but it does! Trust me! *speeds away on the car going above the speedlimit*"

OICW said:

I'm really waiting until people stop being douchebags advocating piracy on moral stands or any other and be honest. And by that I mean standing upright and admitting that they are doing it, because they can.

I'm also waiting for people to stop explaining their actual reasons, and start saying stuff that supports MY point of view!

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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SiegeLord said:

That's a rather hillarious statement. "It does harm, I can't say how or how much... but it does! Trust me! *speeds away on the car going above the speedlimit*"

How much harm does murder do? Quantify it. I want numbers.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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If you're murdered, you're 100.00% dead. Beaten half to death is assault.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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bamccaig said:

Developers would see nobody playing their game when they do a bad job and would actually get paid when they do a good job.

IMHO good marketing and excessive PR sells the game well nowadays :P. Unless it's an unplayable POS, people'll buy it if they fell for it.

SiegeLord said:

"It does harm, I can't say how or how much... but it does! Trust me! *speeds away on the car going above the speedlimit*"

;D - ;D - ;D
You get three smileys for this one.

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

How much harm does murder do? Quantify it. I want numbers.

That's hardly relevant, isn't it? A better question would be: "How much harm does human cloning do?"

EDIT: Although irrelevant, that question is answerable. Murder costs at least the amount of people that died. If you want a monetary figure, then it's up to you how you figure that out, since for me the human life has infinite monetary value.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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SiegeLord said:

That's a rather hillarious statement. "It does harm, I can't say how or how much... but it does! Trust me! *speeds away on the car going above the speedlimit*"

So because he speeds, piracy is ok?

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Albin Engström
Member #8,110
December 2006
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bamccaig said:

The majority of people I know pirate, but can afford to take vacations to Mexico and the Caribbean or can afford all name brand clothing, etc. They can afford to pay and WOULD (like they did before piracy was so convenient) if they had no other choice. This is the largest group of pirates and the ones that the entertainment industry cares the most about. They'll defend that they "can't afford it", but if you look at all of the other luxury items in their lives then it becomes clear that they can and choose not to (because they can get away with it).

That would describe the first option... and I still think those people would only spend(if) their money on the biggest advertising campaign,
if you're the kind of person who buys games

Ofcourse people pirate because they can ???, if everyone would end up like that poor mother from the UK nobody would dare pirate.

bamccaig said:

Piracy has nothing to do with allowing people to spend their money on what they want. That's the way a free market works. You have every right to choose to not spend your money on a game, but if you choose not to then you have no right to play it. It's that simple.

It might be a free market, but how would I know what to spend my money on? Rigged reviews? False promise of features? False impression demos? I've fallen for those more than enough in my life.

I really have a hard time believing that you've never bought a shitty game, especially since you don't pirate.

bamccaig said:

Everything you're saying is just an excuse.

Are you telling me I'm lying to myself? :P

I know people are losing money because of piracy, I'm just saying I don't give a shit about some fat business guy who cries beacuse the "expected revenue" didn't turn up, I mean that's how they talk these days! it so damn arrogant to expect to make a certain amount of money before even releasing the game, that just shows what the business is like for them, they expect to take people money no matter what.

And no, I don't care much about the people who loses their jobs, I don't go into making games to have a steady income, It would be great if there where unlimited money going around but that would be impossible, I know there's a risk of enging up packing someones groceries, and I hope it will stay that way forever, it has to be that way.

bamccaig said:

It would be pretty amazing. Developers would see nobody playing their game when they do a bad job and would actually get paid when they do a good job. Imagine that... :-/

How would that even be possible? People has to play the game before they know if it's good or not, it's the only way.

How would that work? You can't allow some people to pirate and some people to not.

Sigh, this really is an endless battle between people who think they have the right to know what they spend their money on and those who don't.
It's going to be interesing to see how it will turn out in the future.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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The selective enforcement referred to speeding vs. pirating.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
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Theft is AKA stealing.

As for "IP", if you drew a cool battle tank and other kids in class drew battle tanks just like it, they are just copying you. Theft is the bully that comes up to you and snatches the drawing away from you. It is the difference between mv and cp.

So technically copyright infringement (that is *copy*ing in a way contrary to the copy rights (rules) that it was made available under) is NOT theft. Read it twice.

But they say that morally it is theft, because there is a lost sale that was stolen from them (well then, who ended up with that stolen sale?). Technically, in the land of reason and logic, this is not theft. It is something else.

What it really is, is that some of their market has drifted away from them, but is still playing around with various independent copies f the stuff that they created stuff. And they are all like "hey, you like it? Yeah, we made those. Come buy them". And everyone is too busy screwing around with their own copies that they have duplicated from each other and then moving on to something else, and they devs are just the unpopular kid in the corner and no attention to them, so they go around saying that everyone was stealing his stuff, but they didn't they just copied.

And so, because in most peoples natural mind, copying is nothing like stealing but in the dev's perspective it is a closer thing, and so they say this and they say that. Marketing gimmicks and propaganda for the effect that they want. But everyone already knows what the score is. There are a large number of things to complain about first in the life of yours before you get old and die, but do whatever you want.

And good luck to you, unless you are up to no good, in which case bad luck for you.

(\ /)
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(> <)

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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This thread has been up for more than 2 weeks! Someone put it out of its misery! :'(

How would that even be possible? People has to play the game before they know if it's good or not, it's the only way.

Again, excessive PR sells the game nowadays. Developers don't know if they're doing a good job, because they look at the sales. If the game is still being played after some years, that's how they know the did a good job.

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Sirocco
Member #88
April 2000
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A few points, just to totally bury this thread:

1. DRM doesn't work. Never has, never will. The "protecting first week sales" excuse is bullshit since all popular games are leaked well before release.

2. Piracy is not killing gaming; wildly escalating budgets are the culprit. Piracy has been around since the very first days of electronic gaming, and smart folks made reasonable attempts to slow it down, along with accounting for it when they worked up their budgets and forecasts.

3. In the BBS days, anyone who wanted a game and didn't want to pay for it had it within one week of its release. When a game was released, it would be leaked and hit BBSs about a week before the trucks arrived at stores with the boxed copy.

4. These days, piracy is almost always easier than being legit. That's the battle the industry needs to wage first.

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