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OS Speculations
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Kidnapped mothers who are gang-raped still don't force you to do anything... <Ducks and runs>

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Myrdos
Member #1,772
December 2001

LennyLen: You have given no arguments other than vitriol and personal attacks. Why do you post here?

LennyLen said:

By that abuse of reasoning, there's probably not a single honest business in thw world then.

Outside of the software world, I simply can't think of any business that sells things which can be had for free. (Other than the pet rock company.) Can you explain your position?

__________________________________________________

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Outside of the software world, I simply can't think of any business that sells things which can be had for free.

I can go to the city mission and they will give me food. Therefore, by your reasoning, everyone who sells food is dishonest. I can get free sex, so there go all the prostitutes. I was once given a free car, so that takes care of all the car salesmen...

Everything can be had for free somehow, somewhere, which makes everyy business dishonest, by your resoning.

Quote:

LennyLen: You have given no arguments other than vitriol and personal attacks.

Because people who go around claiming they were forced into things when they weren't really piss me off. Good day.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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LennyLen said:

I can go to the city mission and they will give me food. Therefore, by your reasoning, everyone who sells food is dishonest.

The "free food" is paid for by guilt laden liberals.

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I can get free sex, so there go all the prostitutes.

What? No dinner, movie, dancing, flattery? What's your secret?

Quote:

I was once given a free car, so that takes care of all the car salesmen...

I was given a free truck once, with the stipulation to NEVER GET CAUGHT BY THE COPS WHILE DRIVING IT ON PUBLIC ROADWAYS!!! ;D

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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LennyLen said:

Everything can be had for free somehow, somewhere, which makes everyy business dishonest, by your resoning.

Legally free? And of sufficient quantity, quality, and availability?

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Kitty Cat said:

Legally free? And of sufficient quantity, quality, and availability?

He claimed that Tobias giving away food made the bakery dishonest, so apparantly quantity, quality and availaibility don't matter.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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I will only say that there are a great many operating systems which are free, and apparently still around, even though the developers are not being paid. They don't seem to be of lower quality than commercial OSs, in fact many people would argue that they're higher quality. How can this be?

Many people argue that they are weird and don't work well enough for them to use, including me.
I stopped using Ubuntu (the best distro I have found so far) because it doesn't support my wifi (I gave up after trying to compile a patched kernel, which gave me tons of compiler errors and didn't really work the way the enclosed documentation promised), doesn't support my audio hardware (the best I could find was a guy who promised that he would write a driver back in 2007, and nobody has heard from him since), fails to run two mission critical applications (and doesn't offer viable alternatives either), cannot adjust my notebook's screen brightness, and a few other minor annoyances.
Windows XP, however, after going through the ridiculous phone activation process ("Press 2 if you promise you have installed the product on no more than 2 machines") downloading all the drivers from the vendor's web site and installing them, works just fine, which kind of makes up for the less appealing visuals and the fact that a few damn useful features are missing.

Anyway, my point is simply that just because some software is free doesn't mean all software has to be, or that charging money for software is suddenly somehow immoral.

---
Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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There is nothing wrong with charging for software. If there is a free alternative, then people can use that if they choose. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

I have decided the issue, this discussion is over.

ixilom
Member #7,167
April 2006
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No its not (I could post to this thread still :P)

___________________________________________
Democracy in Sweden? Not since 2008-Jun-18.
<someone> The lesbians next door bought me a rolex for my birthday.
<someone> I think they misunderstood when I said I wanna watch...

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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charging for software != open source

Free as in speech, not free as in beer.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Saying that distributing closed source, selling code, anything like that is immoral is fairly stupid. It's your code, your choice. If you (for instance) try to force someone else to do something they'd rather not with their code, that is immoral. I, personally, would say that writing code for (say) Echelon would be immoral, though many would disagree. But saying that a given distribution method is immoral is not really tenable, except in extreme cases[1].

References

  1. Like "you get a copy if you show up with a severed head". :P

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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LennyLen said:

Yes, deliberately. Because anyone who claims that they were forced to buy an OS is either an idiot or a liar.

Wasn't Tobias forced to use windows because his wifi manufacturer (and audio hardware manufacturer) only support windows (in the form of supplying drivers only for that OS)?
What if your university will only allow you to register for X with Internet Explorer? Or only agree to accept papers in the MS Word format?

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I'm using windows because a) It came pre-installed on the computer with no convenient way to get a discount for eliminating it (the computer was much cheaper than buying equivalent parts separately, even with the MS tax), and b) the Alltel Wireless HUAWEI antenna has no Linux driver. Granted, I can still use Linux, but I don't due to keeping an eye peeled for the Recent category of allegro.cc.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Wasn't Tobias forced to use windows because his wifi manufacturer (and audio hardware manufacturer) only support windows (in the form of supplying drivers only for that OS)?

No, he wasn't forced to. He could have chosen to replace the hardware, or even to have not bothered having a computer at all (humans do not require computers, we choose to have them).

Perhaps it's some people here who need to get gang-raped. Then perhaps they'll understand what it means to be forced to do something.

<edit> missed this:

Quote:

What if your university will only allow you to register for X with Internet Explorer? Or only agree to accept papers in the MS Word format?

You still have choices. Go to another university, don't go to one at all. Again, nobody is forcing you to do something. And in any case, you don't need to buy Windows to use IE. You could run a pirated copy on a VM (it can also apparantly be run under Wine, and there is the Mac version, even if it has been discontinued). And OpenOffice can create documents in Word format. Still nobody forcing you to buy a specific OS.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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LennyLen said:

You still have choices. Go to another university, don't go to one at all.

Just because you have other choices doesn't mean you aren't forced. "Sure, you can choose for me to shoot you with this gun OR you can choose to give me your money - it is entirely up to you".
Not going to university for example is not a real choice because you'll probably end up ruining your life.

You're just arguing semantics. Let me ask you this - are you forced to get a job?

jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Nope. But a job makes life a lot easier.

The only thing everyone's forced to do is to die, and even that has to be done only once.

You don't deserve my sig.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Not going to university for example is not a real choice because you'll probably end up ruining your life.

Wow, you're as full of shit as he is. I can't be bothered arguing with idiots any more.

le_y_mistar
Member #8,251
January 2007
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Not going to university for example is not a real choice because you'll probably end up ruining your life.

Are you 16?

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I'm hell of an awesome guy :)

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Wasn't Tobias forced to use windows because his wifi manufacturer (and audio hardware manufacturer) only support windows (in the form of supplying drivers only for that OS)?

No.
I could have done some research before buying said hardware. I didn't, knowing about the risk of not being able to run linux.

Quote:

What if your university will only allow you to register for X with Internet Explorer? Or only agree to accept papers in the MS Word format?

Demand that they provide the necessary hardware and software for you. And I haven't heard of any university doing something like this; if anything, they'd demand you use LaTeX and, um, Telnet or something.

---
Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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furinkan said:

Microsoft charges for most tech support unless you purchase a retail copy of the software. Then they charge for any tech support that doesn't directly involve Windows.

Apple is far worse. And at least you can get on the phone with Microsoft if you have to and at least have someone try to help you. Ever try to get help with some obscure problem with Linux? You're either treated like an idiot, ignored, or given totally unrelated answers. And for the record, I've personally found much more useful info and help regarding Microsoft products online than Linux.

Marketing? (think hundreds of millions here)

And how does marketing happen? As I said - money.

Ubuntu seems to support NTFS. You do need windows to create and format NTFS partitions, though, and since NTFS is basically a closed standard, there are no guarantees about the safety of your data. Also, NTFS has windows-style user permissions built in, so in order to mount an NTFS partition in ubuntu, you need to provide windows credentials (which shouldn't be a problem though).

Are you sure about that? I thought you could format from Linux. Anyhow, I've never had to give user credentials with NTFS-3G either. Personally, I would fully recommend NTFS-3G.

Quote:

You don't see the same thing with other devices though: An average car today comes with a truckload of microprocessors, and many of them have some kind of firmware installed. Nobody complains about paying for that, and neither does anybody utter the idea that the installed firmware could be replaced by something "better".

Don't forget the people who rice out their car by doing useless crap to 'improve' it that actually makes it worse. I loosely equate those types of people with those who install Linux (and have no reason to do so) then bitch when stuff doesn't work, they hate the OS, blah blah blah.

They don't seem to be of lower quality than commercial OSs, in fact many people would argue that they're higher quality. How can this be?

One word: zealosy.

Outside of the software world, I simply can't think of any business that sells things which can be had for free. (Other than the pet rock company.) Can you explain your position?

I can think of a big one - labor. Yes, you could get off your lazy ass, but why, when you can pay someone else to do it for you? Build your own house, do your own car repairs, mow your own lawn, do your own taxes, etc.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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BAF said:

One word: zealosy.

Spelling fail aside, is that an explanation for why Linux is good or for why people say it's better than Windows?

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Spelling fail aside, is that an explanation for why Linux is good or for why people say it's better than Windows?

The latter presumably, since linux isn't better than Windows. Neither is Windows better than Linux.

michaelp
Member #9,602
March 2008

Wubi is really easy to set up: installs Ubuntu on your Windows partition and can remove it via Add + Remove programs.
http://wubi-installer.org/

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Re the lame marketing wasting your money from MS taxes on PC purchases:

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/28/0321251

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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This one is much more fun to read:
How to get a windows tax refund

---
Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

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