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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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weapon_S said:

Cyborg Lesbian pirates can ruin your day!

Can?!?!?

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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What researches have found is similar, they call it "The Uncanny Valley", where anything thats close, but isn't quite close enough to "normal" will creep people out.

What research? The concept of the uncanny valley is pseudoscientific. There have been no studies done on this, no scientific assays. It'd help if people would stop repeating this nonsense and actually try to quantify this. The examples people give ("FF: The Spirits Within" comes to mind) are far from universal. I will go ahead and say the uncanny valley does not exist, and it is a modern urban legend.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Really? I've heard about actual studies, but I'm not going to bother searching for them.

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weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
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Good point, SiegeLord. But have you ever seen a "life like" robot? They're creepy! So dismissing it as "legend" is perhaps too strong: "Rumour" is good.
Thomas, I know it's tempting but stay away from cyborg lesbian pirates. They don't have to ruin your day. (BTW I thought you would have more trouble with Undead Lesbian Vikings where you live.)

Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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What researches have found is similar... "The Uncanny Valley"...

Yeah, that!

SiegeLord said:

... no scientific assays ...

FAIL... edit: aparently I failed... I googled this and it has a definition, my bad. edit #2: nope, not my fail, assay is something to do with metal study results, which is unrelated... So SiegeLord fails.

Also, creepy is highly subjective anyway, so any study done, scientific or not, would only render the results of the people who gave subjective repies... or am I missing something?

weapon_S said:

Cyborg Lesbian pirates can ruin your day!

Well, if you'd rather they not sit around downloading mp3s all day, you can just set pirate mode to off in the settings.ini file. Also turning automatic updates off (in same file) will really come in handy when the robot apocalypse comes...

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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nope, not my fail, assay is something to do with metal study results, which is unrelated... So SiegeLord fails.

Like many words, assay has more than one meaning depending on context. Its most common meaning is to examine or analyze, which fits perfectly well with SiegeLord's usage.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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LennyLen said:

Like many words, assay has more than one meaning depending on context. Its most common meaning is to examine or analyze, which fits perfectly well with SiegeLord's usage.

He still fails, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Also, creepy is highly subjective anyway, so any study done, scientific or not, would only render the results of the people who gave subjective repies... or am I missing something?

Is correlation considered scientific these days? A sufficiently high number of samples should be enough to counter-effect the results of subjectivity.

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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He still fails, though.

The Article said:

David Hanson, a roboticist who has developed realistic robotic copies of several people, including Albert Einstein and Philip K. Dick, said that the idea of the uncanny valley is "really pseudoscientific, but people treat it like it is science."

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Yeah, someone who develops creepy robots would say something like that.

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Onewing said:

"really pseudoscientific, but people treat it like it is science."

More like a really bad special effects department. :P

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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On a related note, a co-worker was telling me that as androids look more and more like people, they'll be creepier and creepier, cause the human mind, if it sees something that looks bi-pedal but not anything like a human that's fine, but the closer it gets to looking human, yet wrongly, the more creepier it automatically looks (imagine a walking, talking mannequin). Whatever, as long as it never gets over emotional and starts chucking cars at my head. 8-)

When I saw that robot hostess made in Japan and showcased on some exhibition I thought that it was pretty creepy. Time to read Do androids dream about electric sheep once again and rewatch Blade Runner.

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Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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Damn lesbian robots looting all the booty! They ruined the day already... And yes it is very creepy...

Oh god... What have I created?!

Which brings me to another question... If a nerd that can't get a date creates a women robot for... well... 'scientific study'... does that robot instantly become self aware and want to be a lesbian rather then continue with the nerds 'scientific study'? ::)

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Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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Ron Novy said:

Which brings me to another question... If a nerd that can't get a date creates a women robot for... well... 'scientific study'... does that robot instantly become self aware and want to be a lesbian rather then continue with the nerds 'scientific study'?

See, those are what we call bugs, we'll just have to work them out before it leaves beta, plus what's all this scientific study nonsense? I'd make mine for sex, and house-hold labour (you know, now that women have rights and stuff and arn't property anymore) after all necessity is the mother of invention.

edit: but what happens when robots protest about "robot's suffrage"? crap.

CursedTyrant
Member #7,080
April 2006
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but what happens when robots protest about "robot's suffrage"? crap.

You turn them off.

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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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anything thats close, but isn't quite close enough to "normal" will creep people out.

Oh. That explains a lot about my life.

Darizel
Member #10,585
January 2009
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SiegeLord said:

There have been no studies done on this

Well, let's start one...

Personally, it creeps me out.

The people in the movie "the Polar Express", for example, are far creepier than those in, say, "The Incredibles".

Anyone who agrees, post and we'll have some statistics to back it up :).

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Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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This is starting to sound more like the movie weird science... Kind of...

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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{"name":"598216","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/d\/9d115bfdc5f0a169576683241bab7480.png","w":461,"h":360,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/d\/9d115bfdc5f0a169576683241bab7480"}598216

it's called the "Uncanny Valley".

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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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This is why I hate video games lately. They try so hard to look like real life that their graphical flaws drive me nuts.

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Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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This is why I hate video games lately. They try so hard to look like real life that their graphical flaws drive me nuts.

Totally agree.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I've been saying the same thing since I got into computers. I'd rather play something stylized and/or cartoony than something that's trying too hard to look real.

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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The original 'uncanny valley' has been coined by Mori in the 70s. Since then there have been studies here and there, some confirming it, and some denying it exists. Indeed, some experiments showed that the inverse 'uncanny peak' existed (e.g. this).

There is no evidence it is a general phenomenon. In an anecdotal example, I did not find FF: The Spirits Within or the Polar Express to be uncanny in any way whatsoever. I don't have any issue with games which try (and fail) to replicate realistic facial expressions either. In my personal opinion (not substantiated by data) I think this uncanny valley is a general result of people being intolerant of outsiders. If you grew up in an environment filled with such simulacrums, you wouldn't be freaked out by it as much as someone who has never seen something like this before.

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Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

Somewhere in Asimov's "I, Robot", he states the robots have cartoonish faces because people would feel uncomfortable otherwise. In the movie, "The Black Hole", Ernest Borgnine comes to the conclusion that the robots don't have faces because that would make them too human.

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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SiegeLord said:

Since then there have been studies here and there, some confirming it, and some denying it exists.

Those would be the studies that you were questioning the existance of in your previous post?

While there is obviously no robust evidence to support the hypothesis, there is enough evidence to suggest that there is some sort of phenomenom going on.

For myself, I believe it is probably linked to the phenomenom that you get when you show people photos that have been doctored so that they are seeing a face that comprises of two mirror images, producing a symmetrical face, like the following:

{"name":"kramer.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/b\/abf015392154cba802ab14ced7afafaf.jpg","w":470,"h":303,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/b\/abf015392154cba802ab14ced7afafaf"}kramer.jpg

I once took a philosophy paper entitled "Computers, Minds, and Logic." As part of it, the professor discussed an experiment he helped conduct at Oxford. In the experiment, people were shown a series of photographs, and were asked to identify which photo was of a celebrity. All of the photos were actually of students and other everyday people, however some of the images were digitally altered so that the faces were symmetrical. The symmetrical faces were picked out approximately four times more frequently than what random chance should have allowed, considering that the images were special in no other way.

While the results showed this abnormality, the researchers weren't able to formulate a viable hypothesis as to why the phenomenon took place. Actually, Jack was quite dismissive of the manner in which they tried to prove some of their claims, but he was intrigued by the results that the experiment did produce.

I don't have any references for the study on me (my text books are boxed away in storage), but he discusses the experiment, and has footnotes with the references in his book Artificial Intelligence: A Philosophical Introduction.

I was discussing this thread with my girlfriend today and she told me another interesting fact that I didn't know. She has a cousin who works as a sub-editor for a woman's magazine, and one of the tricks they discovered years ago to bolster sales is to flip the celebrity photos for the magazine cover so that it's a mirror image. Apparantly the difference is enough for people to subtly pick up on as they glance at it, which draws them in long enough for them to start reading the headlines. I doubt they did any scientific analysis for this, but there's huge money in the woman's magazine industry, and when they decide something is worthwhile, there's probably some basis for it.



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