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Holes in Vista already?
ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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Its always supported OpenGL, the debate was over if they would stop support over newer versions.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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The debate was over whether it'd allow hardware OpenGL drivers with Aeroglass on. Originally, they got hardware OpenGL working on Vista, then MS locked OpenGL out by disabling Aero if a hardware driver was found (they'd still work without Aero, but who'd do that?). The only way to get OpenGL in that case was to use MS's wrapper which did OpenGL 1.4 only (with no extensions) over Direct3D.

Since then, OpenGL hardware drivers were supposedly allowed again with Aeroglass on.

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"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Quote:

So let me see if I got this right. Windows now has the flashy GUI that MacOS X has had for the past five years, and requires a top-of-the-line new computer to use it?

I'm not a mac guy but I didn't think it's GUI used 3D technology for it's OS? Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, I will not buy Vista. I usually skip an OS with MS. Had 98, didn't buy ME, and got XP. I alos think it's OK to have high specs. I want a high tech OS like on that Tom Cruise future type movie where you move everything with your hand, and I would imagine it takes a powerful computer to do that.

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

I'm not a mac guy but I didn't think it's GUI used 3D technology for it's OS?

It uses hardware acceleration for its window compositing and special effects and has done so for quite a while.

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Quote:

It uses hardware acceleration for its window compositing and special effects and has done so for quite a while.

OK. Seems hard to compare Apple and MS. Apple is really the whole PC along with the OS. MS if just the OS, so they don't know what the user has for hardware. If MS was like apple in that they had the hardware and you had to use that, they would be sued again I'm sure.

[EDIT]
Also, are they truely using the full force of that hardware acceleration? Some of the screenshots I've seen on vista look like they are using 3D window searches or something. Just because they use hardware acceleration to draw windows doesn't mean they are using all 3D features for their OS?

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Quote:

that Tom Cruise future type movie where you move everything with your hand

Minority Report?

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

Apple is really the whole PC along with the OS

I see no difference since they use the exact same hardware. Only the earlier versions of OSX were runnig on Power CPU but that hardly matters.

One more interesting thing is that I can use XGL/AIGLX on my ancient gf2 mx with 32M of vRam on P3 500Mhz with 256M ram. Compare the features of compiz and Aero and their HW requirements. Something seems awfulyl wrong with Aero's HW requirements.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Quote:

I see no difference since they use the exact same hardware.

I didn't think they did? I didn't think I could go to Best Buy and guy a gfx card and put it into a Mac?

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

MS if just the OS, so they don't know what the user has for hardware.

Quite true. That's no reason for Vista to require more powerful hardware than OS X to do the same thing though.

Quote:

Also, are they truely using the full force of that hardware acceleration? Some of the screenshots I've seen on vista look like they are using 3D window searches or something.

I don't know, but from the hardware perspective it shouldn't matter if it looks like 3D or 2D to the user. It uses OpenGL anyway.

EDIT:

Quote:

I didn't think I could go to Best Buy and guy a gfx card and put it into a Mac?

No, but you can go there and buy the same graphics card as in the Mac and put it in your PC. Well, you probably could plug any random graphics card in the Mac, but I would expect it to fail horribly since it's not what the OS was designed for.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

I see no difference since they use the exact same hardware. Only the earlier versions of OSX were runnig on Power CPU but that hardly matters.

It's the fact that apple only has one or maybe 2 targets total. Unlike where Windows has to run on insane combinations of hardware that can vary a tiny bit, or a huge amount. It is SO much easier to design something around a single base line than a rapidly moving target.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

I didn't think they did? I didn't think I could go to Best Buy and guy a gfx card and put it into a Mac?

From what I know, Mac GPU's simply have a bit different BIOS loaded. You can flash it to become a PC GPU and vice versa.

Quote:

It's the fact that apple only has one or maybe 2 targets total. Unlike where Windows has to run on insane combinations of hardware that can vary a tiny bit, or a huge amount. It is SO much easier to design something around a single base line than a rapidly moving target.

Isn't that what drivers are for? You know, they should make programming HW a bit simplier :)
Besides, games have been running on all sorts of HW without too much problems. I bet Apple and MS have lot more recources to make their software working on different HW.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Isn't that what drivers are for? You know, they should make programming HW a bit simplier :)

Good luck with that ;)

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Besides, games have been running on all sorts of HW without too much problems. I bet Apple and MS have lot more recources to make their software working on different HW.

1. PC deveopers have to.
2. Apple doesn't have to support as much different hardware, they just support whatever they are selling. (much cheaper and easier)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Ok, let me ask a bit differently:
what graphics HW does Apple support with OSX?

Am I correct when I say anything from NV and ATI starting from FX and 9000 series and later Intel integrated video? Or do you seriously think that OSX on Mac Pro only supports 7300GT, x1900XT and FX4500?

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

what graphics HW does Apple support with OSX?

Last I heard Intel went with mostly embedded Intel gfx. Now, I recall stores selling ATI mac cards, but I don't know if they still do. And if they do, its not Apple that has to support it, just the card maker.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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You can buy mac's from Apple home page with different kinds of NV, ATI and Intel integrated graphics. I would assume they are all officially supported by Apple.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Huh, interesting, but thats still far more limited than the bajillions of combinations you get with PCs ;)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Well, Vista actually seems to support about as many GPU's as OSX, perhaps even less assuming that OSX works on pre-DX9 HW too :)
Also there are very little difference between the GPU's of same generation (e.g ati x8xx, NV6xxx)

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Now count the actual discreet cards and all the manufacturers that provide all their own slightly different versions for the PC :) Unfortunately MS has to support that stuff ;)

Apple has to support about 10 different 'solutions' it seems, a few from nvidia, a few from ati and a few from intel.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

Now count the actual discreet cards and all the manufacturers that provide all their own slightly different versions for the PC

What is different about them besides stickers, coolers and in some extreme cases, board layout? They all use/work with the same drivers the GPU manufacturers provide.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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They don't always work the same. And theirs still 3 or more versions of the same chip family that behave differently under different loads/circumstances. then theres many many families, and several brands. All multiplying together to get a much larger number, which makes the amount of work to support it all jump in orders of magnitude.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

They don't always work the same

Can you bring some examples where graphics cards manufactured by different companies that use same GPUs work differently?

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Some get overclocked, some under clocked, some may disable features to sell the card more cheaply, yet its still the same gpu inside. All this stuff happens all the time.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

Some get overclocked, some under clocked

Only affects speed

Quote:

some may disable features

I don't think they can disable features that affect window manager HW acceleration (ooh, let's disable vertex shaders to save some money! :P).
Only all sorts of IO ports and perhaps some de/encoders could be disabled/removed, assuming they are in an addon chip and not built into the GPU itself.

Let me remind you that this discussion started when someone said that perhaps it is easier for Apple to provide desktop compositing since it supports only a few GPU's. I tried to explain there really is not much differece, certainly not in programming and API end.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Only affects speed

And stability. But performance is a big part of deciding what works and what doesn't with Aero.

Quote:

Only all sorts of IO ports and perhaps some de/encoders could be disabled/removed, assuming they are in an addon chip and not built into the GPU itself.

I wonder if they can't disable entire shader Quads, nvidia does to make the lower end chips.

Quote:

I tried to explain there really is not much differece, certainly not in programming and API end.

And I tried to explain that not all gpus are created equal. even in the same family. Apple has three TOTAL given chips with very specific stats at any given time, where as a PC has quite a few more, at least 3 per vendor (intel, ati, nvdia, matrox, and anyone else that happens to make gfx chips still) per family.

Apple gets to drop support for an older family when it feels like, and only needs to support one given version in a family, PCs don't have that luxury.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

And stability.

That's why they should replace coolers also. In any way, OS doesn't have to take care of bad HW and from what I know, no OS tries to. Worst that could happen is that drivers lower clock speed and voltages to reduce heat, OS itself has (almost?) nothing to do with it.

Quote:

But performance is a big part of deciding what works and what doesn't with Aero.

When Intel IGP is enough then any other GPU is enough for Aero also. After all, that IGP uses system RAM (very little throughput) and half the stuff is calculated on CPU. Only minimum requirement I've seen for Aero is DX9 compatible HW with 128M of vRam, no mention of memory bandwidth or shader power.

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I wonder if they can't disable entire shader Quads, nvidia does to make the lower end chips.

They can and do with modified BIOS. Driver takes care of everything else and you won't need a special driver for your crippled GPU to work, the official ones will do just fine.

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Apple gets to drop support for an older family when it feels like, PCs don't have that luxury.

But still, OSX should work on two completely different CPU architectures :)
Also, if I'm not mistaken then OSX works with G4 CPU's too. IIRC, by todays standards they had some very low-end DX8 class GPU's back then.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski



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