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Oklo: Natural Nuclear Reactors
Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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Apparently that really bright thing that crosses the sky every day has something to do with nuclear power, and I know I've been burned after a fashion several times by this thing. And I'm told it can lead to cancer. Why don't we work on THAT first?

That's FUSION not FISSION ;)

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Yeah, because fusion has absolutely nothing to do with atomic nuclei.

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Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Don't some scientists think there's a fission reaction going on in the earth's core?

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I guess I always assumed a nuclear warhead and a power plant had the same stuff inside of them.

A nuclear warhead works by compressing the nuclear explosive to critical density to create a run-away reaction. A nuclear reactor works by increasing neutron exposior on a target (which generates heat, which is used to boil water and power a steam engine, someone correct me if I'm wrong here). Different mechanism.

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Don't some scientists think there's a fission reaction going on in the earth's core?

Yes. Actually, if there were no nuclear fission inside the Earth, the core would have cooled down long ago and the Earth wouldn't be volcanically active anymore. At least not as active as it is today (compare Mars, which has cooled internally and is now a mostly dead world). Tidal forces from the Moon also produce some heat, but a bit less I think.

Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

Quote:

A nuclear warhead works by compressing the nuclear explosive to critical density to create a run-away reaction.

To expand further (for science!): There are two classics mechanisms for causing a nuclear explosion. One, nuclear material is surrounded by a highly tuned and accurate explosion, compressing it as Evert stated. The nuclear material is in a ball and completely surrounded by explosives. This is a very difficult machine to build, due to the great need for accuracy in the explosives. One mistake and it becomes merely a dirty bomb.
The other method involves, in a rough sense, throw nuclear particles at high speeds into a larger mass. They collide, go boom (roughly ...).

As you can see, neither can be achieved with a simple bomb. A terrorist would be better off attempting to steal the nuclear material and building a bomb from that.

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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Yes. Actually, if there were no nuclear fission inside the Earth, the core would have cooled down long ago and the Earth wouldn't be volcanically active anymore. At least not as active as it is today (compare Mars, which has cooled internally and is now a mostly dead world). Tidal forces from the Moon also produce some heat, but a bit less I think.

as far as I know the core heat is generated by magetism and the moon has ( as with a LOT of other tings *) a big part in it.

  • The moon also stabelizes the rotating and the magnetic axis

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To expand further (for science!): There are two classics mechanisms for causing a nuclear explosion. One, nuclear material is surrounded by a highly tuned and accurate explosion, compressing it as Evert stated. The nuclear material is in a ball and completely surrounded by explosives. This is a very difficult machine to build, due to the great need for accuracy in the explosives. One mistake and it becomes merely a dirty bomb.
The other method involves, in a rough sense, throw nuclear particles at high speeds into a larger mass. They collide, go boom (roughly ...).

As you can see, neither can be achieved with a simple bomb. A terrorist would be better off attempting to steal the nuclear material and building a bomb from that.

The second kind is the simpelest, but can only be built with uranium.
Plutonium will start a chain reaction even before the 2 parts form a supercritical mass, ripping the bomb appart before a significant part of the plutonium has split.
This would result in a verry small "nuclear" explosion and a lot of fall out

That's why a plutonium bomb is built like the first type ( compression bomb)

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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as far as I know the core heat is generated by magetism and the moon has ( as with a LOT of other tings *) a big part in it.

As far as I know, the Earth's magnetic field is thought to be generated by differential rotation (shear) between the inner and outer parts of the fluid core, which would not be fluid if they weren't hot enough - so I don't see how magnetism can be responsible for heating there, the energy balance wouldn't come out right in the long run. I don't know how clear the situation is though, I think it's still not entirely clear what generates the Earth's magnetic field - Venus doesn't seem to have one, for instance.
Radioactivity definately is an important source of heat in the Earth's interior though. Some radioactive rocks are actually warm to the touch.

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The moon also stabelizes the rotating and the magnetic axis

I know.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

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It's your analogy. I'm just continuing along its logical implication; that if something can be misused, it shouldn't be used. Because that's what you're saying, isn't it?

Your 'logic' went like this: "Pigs are dirty. Cops are dirty. Therefore cops are pigs". A logical fallacy.

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And when was the last time this apocalyptic scenario you describe took place, hm?

There were many accidents in nuclear power plants all around the world after Chernobyl, none of which was the size of Chernobyl.

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Yes. Yes.

So you really think people that leave the comfort of their living rooms and focusing their entire life on protecting the environment are a bunch of loonies?

Hey, it does not surprise me a bit. After all, Bush was elected. And people support Intelligent Design over Evolution.

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Could you describe how a modern reactor could do anything similar as Chernobyl? For me it seems near impossible, at least you will have work really hard to make similar thing to happen.

Accidents may happen not due to bad design but due to human negligence. A new reactor may be 100% safe for now, but not in 30 years when its components are not replaced with new ones.

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Name one accident that has happened in a nuclear reactor that has killed a few people or contaminated notable area. I know Chernobyl and no other. How many do you know?

Nuclear and radiation accidents

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I'm not sure who run it but sometimes they are certainly against weird stuff. Basically they are trying to be good in short term and don't care what will happen in the long run. They are popularizing green energy but so far I don't know any that wouldn't have massive impact on nature.

What I am trying to say is that we can not rule scientists as liars or crazy madmen just because they do not support our policies. I am speaking in 1st person, but I am talking in general: USA policies, France policies, etc. These people are scientists, first and foremost. If they saw something illogical, they wouldn't support it. And it is not like they are paid by someone to damage USA's economy or something.

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What's the difference? No one's going to advocate fission reactors once they get fusion working.

If we find a way to safely produce power from fusion, then it will be accepted and I am sure Greenpeace will not have a problem with it, as long as it is a proven fact that fusion is safe.

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Car accidents (plural) kill 1.2 million people a year [en.wikipedia.org]. How many are killed by accidents caused by nuclear reactors?

Car accidents do not pollute the water, air and ground for millenia, nor they result in the birth of deformed children or in cancer.

Furthermore, counting deaths as absolute numbers is misleading, at least. You should count the dangerousness of an event by applying weights to it. For example, number of dead people/number of responsible people or period of accident/deaths. You will see that with a nuclear accident, it takes very few people and a very small period of time to kill millions, something not possible with car accidents.

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This is why you should read the previous posts in the thread. It's getting repetitive.

Some things never change. For example, accidents in flights have increased because companies reduced safety for economic reasons.

There is nothing that guarantees that a prosperous society that can maintain nuclear reactors today can do so in the future. And when its economy suffers, they will try to do everything to cover it up, including lack of proper maintenance of nuclear power plants...and then one day, 'kaboom'.

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  • Shock propaganda

* Twisting facts and making outright lies
* FUD

See kids, science can be fun when you use the right methods!

Sad day today. You all people have more faith in Bush and religion than in science? Perhaps humanity deserves what it gets.

Instead of blaming politicians and greedy corporations, you blame scientists!

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That's what everyone's been wondering all along.

The propaganda against Greenpeace has been started by the same group that started the propaganda against the United Nations. This group includes the current USA government, the British government, the defense industries and the pharmaceutical/genetically modified crops companies that do not want to see their profits set back by taking steps to ensure the environment is preserved.

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Car accidents do not pollute the water, air and ground for millenia

Have you heard a thing called "global warming"?

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You all people have more faith in Bush and religion than in science?

No but I also don't live in US :P

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Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

Your 'logic' went like this: "Pigs are dirty. Cops are dirty. Therefore cops are pigs". A logical fallacy.

Nope, his logic was fine, actually. You said that fission reactors are bad, since they can kill people if someone makes an error. He said that cars and planes and stuff can also kill people, if there's an error. That's perfectly valid.

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So you really think people that leave the comfort of their living rooms and focusing their entire life on protecting the environment are a bunch of loonies?

To be honest, I'd sooner believe the people who actually do this stuff for a living! I can put on white coat, but that doesn't make me into a doctor.

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Hey, it does not surprise me a bit. After all, Bush was elected. And people support Intelligent Design over Evolution.
...
Sad day today. You all people have more faith in Bush and religion than in science?

I doubt anyone here supports Bush or intelligent design. I don't know where you got that from. I'd say you're exercising Greenpeace tactics:

Inphernic said:

* Twisting facts and making outright lies

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A new reactor may be 100% safe for now, but not in 30 years when its components are not replaced with new ones.

And the components are not replaced by new ones, because...?

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Car accidents do not pollute the water, air and ground for millenia, nor they result in the birth of deformed children or in cancer.

Furthermore, counting deaths as absolute numbers is misleading, at least. You should count the dangerousness of an event by applying weights to it. For example, number of dead people/number of responsible people or period of accident/deaths. You will see that with a nuclear accident, it takes very few people and a very small period of time to kill millions, something not possible with car accidents.

Car's do pollute air and water, and that causes all kinds of nasty stuff. And saying that a couple of people can kill millions when talking about nuclear reactors is just nonsense. That's simply not true. Also, my point is that if you count the average amount of people killed by nuclear accidents and by cars per year, the amount is way higher for cars. Same for injuries, even if you count mutations and whatnot as injuries in the case of nuclear accidents.

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Instead of blaming politicians and greedy corporations, you blame scientists!

This confuses me. Who's blaming anything on anyone?

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

So you really think people that leave the comfort of their living rooms and focusing their entire life on protecting the environment are a bunch of loonies?

Actually, if you read the arguments given carefully, the arguments given are for protecting the environment. You're disagreeing about what is worse.

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A new reactor may be 100% safe for now, but not in 30 years when its components are not replaced with new ones.

With any luck, we have a better alternative in 30 years. Nuclear fission reactors are not the best solution for all time. But right now, they're the lesser of two evils.

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These people are scientists, first and foremost. If they saw something illogical, they wouldn't support it.

Most scientist I know are in favour of nuclear power, for the reasons already given: burning fossil fuels is worse.

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Car accidents do not [...] result in the birth of deformed children or in cancer.

No, they don't. Car emissions do though.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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axilmar said:

Nuclear and radiation accidents [en.wikipedia.org]

Yes, and how many of those did anything outside the site where they happened?

axilmar said:

And when its economy suffers, they will try to do everything to cover it up, including lack of proper maintenance of nuclear power plants...and then one day, 'kaboom'.

Haven't we already told you that that Just. Doesn't. Happen?

axilmar said:

The propaganda against Greenpeace has been started by the same group that started the propaganda against the United Nations.

No, Greenpeace has done all that by and to themselves. Sorry. No conspiracy here.

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Francois Lamini
Member #7,791
September 2006
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The earth's core is sort of like a nuclear reactor. Why has it never cooled off?

Francois

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

The earth's core is sort of like a nuclear reactor.

It's nothing like a nuclear reactor. The Sun is a fusion reactor though.

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Why has it never cooled off?

Several reasons, some already given above:
1) Ongoing radioactivity in the core and mantle is a source of heat.
2) Tidal forces from the Moon heat up the Earth's interior.
3) The Earth isn't old enough for the interior to have cooled down yet(!).

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
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Quote:

Nuclear and radiation accidents [en.wikipedia.org]

While we're using Wikipedia for reference, some insight might be gained from this page: International Nuclear Events Scale. This is a universal scientific scale based on the effects caused by the accident. The article shows most recent examples of each level of accidents.

Please note that there was only one INES-4 event since Chernobyl, and no INES-5 or higher events, which are the ones that pose any danger to the public. Also, the sole INES-4 event in Tokai, Japan attained this level not because off-site, but on-site effects (two employees died from irradiation).

All the other (post-Chernobyl) accidents on your list are only INES-3 or lower, which pose no danger to the public. So, it seems highly probable that safety has improved pretty much since then, and the modern designs are much less prone to human error.

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Please note that there was only one INES-4 event since Chernobyl, and no INES-5 or higher events, which are the ones that pose any danger to the public. Also, the sole INES-4 event in Tokai, Japan attained this level not because off-site, but on-site effects (two employees died from irradiation).

And, of course, that wasn't in a nuclear power plant.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Speaking about nuclear accidents I can name only three at the moment, which I remember:
-Chernobyl - I won't speak about this :-X
-Some plant in Pensylvania, where contaminated water from the primary circuit leaked into the reactor containment bunker. It didn't pose danger to public.
-One accident in GB, I don't even know if it was power plant. I think that it was some plant for uranium refining.

As far as I know I don't remember any nuclear accident that would pose a threat to public. Yes, there is a danger but the chance of something happening is very, very low, due to better security meassures and controls, even from such organizations as GreenPeace.

I don't see any problem with the waste - since we burrow it deep underground (> 1km in abandoned copper mines) it doesn't pose any threat. Oh by the way leak of radon gas into your basement is much more dangerous... What I cannot understand are those loonies locking themselves to a rail when the train with waste is going along - that might cause an accident.

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Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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The real problem is that there are just too many people on the Earth. If the population was much lower we would have more resources and time to figure out Fusion power, or better renewable energy sources.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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RP: there's a solution 8-)

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...we'll start reducing the human population to a... more manageable size, I don't know, say err... less than a thousand.

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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The real problem is that there are just too many people on the Earth. If the population was much lower we would have more resources and time to figure out Fusion power

Didn't someone say something about an atomic bomb killing millions of people...?

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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I think the soon to come flu virus pandemic will prove more deadly..

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
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Didn't someone say something about an atomic bomb killing millions of people...?

Well, I know miran was working on a surprise at his plant :P.

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Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
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Well, I know miran was working on a surprise at his plant :P.

The surprise turned out to be his new "sexy stare". "Piccolo-sexy stare".

-R

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
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The surprise turned out to be his new "sexy stare". "Piccolo-sexy stare".

Well, it certainly killed me. I don't know about the rest of the population.

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nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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Whoa Evert, you really took that 'radioactive earths core' idea and ran with it.

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Yes. Actually, if there were no nuclear fission inside the Earth, the core would have cooled down long ago and the Earth wouldn't be volcanically active anymore. At least not as active as it is today (compare Mars, which has cooled internally and is now a mostly dead world). Tidal forces from the Moon also produce some heat, but a bit less I think.

Why post opinion and conjecture when facts are so easy to come by?

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Today, the giant impact theory for forming the Earth-Moon system is widely accepted by the scientific community. In this theory, the impact of a Mars-sized body into the proto-Earth is postulated to have put enough material into circumterrestrial orbit to form the Moon.[1] Given that planetary bodies are believed to have formed by the hierarchical accretion of smaller to larger sized bodies, giant impact events such as this are thought to have affected most planets. Computer simulations modeling this impact can account for the angular momentum of the Earth-Moon system, as well as the small size of the lunar core.



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