Allegro.cc - Online Community

Allegro.cc Forums » Off-Topic Ordeals » Oklo: Natural Nuclear Reactors

This thread is locked; no one can reply to it. rss feed Print
Oklo: Natural Nuclear Reactors
Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
avatar

Quote:

Don't worry, I don't have high enough security clearance... Yet.

You're in IT, right? You can always check in an innocent fix that multiplies some variable by ten thousand ;).

---------------------------
[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
avatar

miran said:

Quote:

though it would be near impossible for anything to go wrong anyways

Oooh, a challenge. :D

... and that comment made this whole thread worthwhile. ;D

--
Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

How about a couple bunker busters right on top of the reactor? I'm just saying if something did get through would it start a chain reaction and turn the whole place into a nuclear waste zone killing everyone for miles around?

A) No, that would not happen.
B) You don't just design an entire nation's energy infrastructure around fear of someone bombing the powerplants! If I was planing to bomb something (and I'm not) I wouldn't pick a nuclear powerplant, because:
1) There's no way I'd get away with it, and the bomb wouldn't probaby even go off.
2) Even if the bomb did go off, it probably wouldn't do that much damage.
3) Bombers usually do it for a purpose. If I was trying to terrorize someone, causing a blackout wouldn't be the first thing in my mind. They don't exactly build these powerplants in city centers, you know.

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
avatar

Let's hope the aliens can provide us with cool power sources! :)

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Quote:

Actually, yes you can, and - most important of all - meltdown != "BIG NUKULAR KABOOM!!!ONEONE". Build 'em right and the worst-case scenario is a scrapped reactor.

Yeah, and the infection from Chernobyl was only at Eastern Europe, Scandinavia and West Asia.

I could have agreed with you if it was possible to guarantee perfect operation of nuclear power plants. But as long as we are humans, we make errors, and therefore safety is compromised.

Just like airplanes: every possible precaution is taken for safe journeys, yet there are accidents on an almost daily basis.

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

Yeah, and the infection from Chernobyl was only at Eastern Europe, Scandinavia and West Asia.

Didn't bother to read the previous posts then, eh? Chernobyl is not a valid argument against nuclear power.

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Quote:

Didn't bother to read the previous posts then, eh? Chernobyl is not a valid argument against nuclear power.

No, I did not, because I've read them over and over in other sources.

To sum my view up: nuclear power = good, nuclear reactors = bad.

Show me a way to make absolutely certain that no problem can occur, and that nuclear waste can be safely disposed, and I am all for it.

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
avatar

You can get killed quite easily when driving a car or when someone smashes his/her car into you but not many people seem to protest against them. They also pollute way more than nuclear plants, though their pollution isn't that radioactive, it just causes global warming that will eventually screw us all.

There are probably several orders of magnitude more people killed by car accidents than with any kind of radiation (including Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl and any other similar thing). Funny, isn't it?

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

Quote:

There are probably several orders of magnitude more people killed by car accidents than with any kind of radiation (including Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl and any other similar thing).

I'm sure cars have probably killed more than all the above examples combined. Mind you, there are a hell of a lot more cars than nuclear power plants and nuclear bomb sites.

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
avatar

Exactly my point.
People like having fast, cheap comfortable cars (the bigger my car the less chance of being killed, isn't it?). When they are offered relatively clean and cheap power they are prepared to go to war against it for some reason. I blame Greenpeace and their brainwashing :P

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

Quote:

I blame Greenpeace and their brainwashing

Indeed. The same people who are against rain forests being raized to make space for farmland, and also against genetic engineering which can be used to reduce the ammount of farmland needed to produce food.

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

I blame Greenpeace and their brainwashing

Yeah, that's another thing I don't get. How do environmentalists oppose nuclear power!? That's like a vegetarian opposing tofu! :o

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
avatar

@LennyLen

The problem with genetic engineering is that you "make" en new organism wich could tip the balance of nature.
For example because there are no natural enemy's

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

Quote:

The problem with genetic engineering is that you "make" en new organism wich could tip the balance of nature.
For example because there are no natural enemy's

That's a potential problem. It can be avoided by engineering organisms incapable of reproducing however. I certainly don't advocate rushing into the issue.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
avatar

Quote:

Just like airplanes: every possible precaution is taken for safe journeys, yet there are accidents on an almost daily basis.

Hence we should stop using airplanes, right? Cars are theoretically pretty safe, but we're just human and traffic accidents happen. Let's all stop using cars. Knives are safe if used right, but we're just human and we make mistakes and stab people. Let's ban knives. In fact, let's ban anything that could conceivably be used to cause harm to humans if it goes wrong; after all, we're only human and safety is compromised.

Your argument is absurd.

And, as already mentioned several times, Chernobyl was an old, poorly built reactor that wasn't run properly. That kind of tragedy is just not possible in modern nuclear reactors, no matter how badly someone screws up. It's not going to happen. It's a poor example, and almost completely irrelevant to the modern debate on nuclear power vs. its alternatives (which, realistically, consist of coal power and... that's about it).

On the topic of genetic engineering, you'd think the environmentards would be in favor of more research into the subject so those issues can be solved. But, no, apparently not; the vogue is to just protest anything and everything that sounds threatening. :P

--
Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Quote:

You can get killed quite easily when driving a car or when someone smashes his/her car into you but not many people seem to protest against them. They also pollute way more than nuclear plants, though their pollution isn't that radioactive, it just causes global warming that will eventually screw us all.

There are probably several orders of magnitude more people killed by car accidents than with any kind of radiation (including Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl and any other similar thing). Funny, isn't it?

False analogy. A car accident can kill a few people, a nuclear accident can kill millions.

A car accident does not pollute the environment, the water, the ground for millenia.

Quote:

Yeah, that's another thing I don't get. How do environmentalists oppose nuclear power!? That's like a vegetarian opposing tofu!

They don't oppose nuclear power, they oppose the current implementation of nuclear reactors.

Quote:

Hence we should stop using airplanes, right? Cars are theoretically pretty safe, but we're just human and traffic accidents happen. Let's all stop using cars. Knives are safe if used right, but we're just human and we make mistakes and stab people. Let's ban knives. In fact, let's ban anything that could conceivably be used to cause harm to humans if it goes wrong; after all, we're only human and safety is compromised.

Your argument is absurd.

Your analogy is absurd, not my argument.

Quote:

And, as already mentioned several times, Chernobyl was an old, poorly built reactor that wasn't run properly. That kind of tragedy is just not possible in modern nuclear reactors, no matter how badly someone screws up. It's not going to happen. It's a poor example, and almost completely irrelevant to the modern debate on nuclear power vs. its alternatives (which, realistically, consist of coal power and... that's about it).

Not true. Supporters of nuclear power plants have been saying so for years, yet accidents happen all the time.

Your super duper non-failing reactor will have big problems when it grows old, like the one in Chernobyl.

Furthermore, who can make certain that all nuclear reactors are built to the maximum safety and security? does anyone wish to let poorer countries built nuclear reactors not up to the standards?

It's funny how some people can twist reality. Do you think Greenpeace is run by a bunch of idiots? those people are scientists, they know what they are talking about. Do you think that they would risk their lifes, families and jobs for a fantasy?

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
avatar

Quote:

Your analogy is absurd, not my argument.

It's your analogy. I'm just continuing along its logical implication; that if something can be misused, it shouldn't be used. Because that's what you're saying, isn't it?

Quote:

Supporters of nuclear power plants have been saying so for years, yet accidents happen all the time.

And when was the last time this apocalyptic scenario you describe took place, hm?

Quote:

Do you think Greenpeace is run by a bunch of idiots? ... Do you think that they would risk their lifes, families and jobs for a fantasy?

Yes. Yes.

--
Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
avatar

Quote:

nuclear accident can kill millions.

Could you describe how a modern reactor could do anything similar as Chernobyl? For me it seems near impossible, at least you will have work really hard to make similar thing to happen.

Quote:

yet accidents happen all the time

Name one accident that has happened in a nuclear reactor that has killed a few people or contaminated notable area. I know Chernobyl and no other. How many do you know?

I think there might have been something in China a while ago but I don't think there were any casualities. Then again it could have been some kind of a chemical plant accident, I'm not sure.

Quote:

Your super duper non-failing reactor will have big problems when it grows old, like the one in Chernobyl.

Why should it have problems? It's not like it has lifetime supply of fuel in it.

Quote:

Do you think Greenpeace is run by a bunch of idiots?

I'm not sure who run it but sometimes they are certainly against weird stuff. Basically they are trying to be good in short term and don't care what will happen in the long run. They are popularizing green energy but so far I don't know any that wouldn't have massive impact on nature.

One more thing, does anyone of you live near a railroad where trains transport gas and oil? Did you knew that when one of those trains goes boom it can level several square kilometers?

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

They don't oppose nuclear power, they oppose the current implementation of nuclear reactors.

What's the difference? No one's going to advocate fission reactors once they get fusion working.

Quote:

False analogy. A car accident can kill a few people, a nuclear accident can kill millions.

Car accidents (plural) kill 1.2 million people a year. How many are killed by accidents caused by nuclear reactors?

Quote:

Your super duper non-failing reactor will have big problems when it grows old, like the one in Chernobyl.

This is why you should read the previous posts in the thread. It's getting repetitive.

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

Inphernic
Member #1,111
March 2001

Quote:

those people are scientists

  • Shock propaganda

  • Twisting facts and making outright lies

  • FUD

See kids, science can be fun when you use the right methods!

Dustin Dettmer
Member #3,935
October 2003
avatar

Evert said:

How would it start a chain reaction?

Ok that pretty much answers my question. I guess I always assumed a nuclear warhead and a power plant had the same stuff inside of them. But I guess I was grossly wrong.

If they really aren't that unsafe, who decided to start throwing all this propaganda everywhere then?

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

If they really aren't that unsafe, who decided to start throwing all this propaganda everywhere then?

That's what everyone's been wondering all along.

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
avatar

Quote:

I guess I always assumed a nuclear warhead and a power plant had the same stuff inside of them.

Well, first off they don't (atomic weaponry is often loaded with Pu-239 and weapons-grade uranium with a U-235 content of at least 93%, whereas a nuclear reactor runs on enriched uranium with a U-235 content of only about 3-4%), but more importantly even if they did, how would what you described happen? Just lumping fissile material together or even exposing chunks of fissile material to intense heat (such as from an explosion) isn't necessarily going to do anything spectacular.

--
Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

Apparently that really bright thing that crosses the sky every day has something to do with nuclear power, and I know I've been burned after a fashion several times by this thing. And I'm told it can lead to cancer. Why don't we work on THAT first?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
avatar

Quote:

Why don't we work on THAT first?

{"name":"sunscreen.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/8\/0\/80b3329f40e190c1b983f8a49f8c707f.jpg","w":300,"h":245,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/8\/0\/80b3329f40e190c1b983f8a49f8c707f"}sunscreen.jpg

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski



Go to: