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The anti-christmascard
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

People are funnier than anybody.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

I know that anything I could name as evidence from personal experience will just be dismissed as things I made up

Not necessarily made up (I don't think you go sit in a corner and think about what you're going to tell us next), but you will agree that it is personal and subjective, which means that it is, strictly speaking, anecdotal evidence. Which is no good since anyone can claim anything. Even if you are correct, your personal experience doesn't prove anything for anyone else.
Come up with a falsifiable test (ie, something I can in principle reproduce) and we're on equal ground (yes, that's the scientific method for you).

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote:

Come up with a falsifiable test (ie, something I can in principle reproduce) and we're on equal ground (yes, that's the scientific method for you).

Oh, I know. That's why I don't apply science here, nor do I feel a sensible person would. But I guess when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ...

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
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Quote:

Oh, I know. That's why I don't apply science here, nor do I feel a sensible person would. But I guess when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ...

If I understand that statement (and Evert's) correctly, you are dismissing the scientific method because it won't fit to your subjective appreciations. Am I right?

-R

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Um, no. I'm dismissing the scientific method because it's impossible to apply. Science is a terrible tool to study unique past events that can't be reproduced, religious or otherwise. I appreciate the condescending tone of your post though. :) I'm sure a lot of people like to insist on the scientific method because they know it's futile and they can continue in their own "subjective appreciations" without fear of their views being challenged, which I guess validates the "science is religion" view a bit. Not that I believe that personally, but like I said above, the hypocrisy is all a bit humorous. ;)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
avatar

Well, I'm not the one who started with the condescending tone. And I'm not claiming to "believe" in science, I'm merely questioning your line of thought to understand the reason you believe in a religion.

As I've stated early, I do believe gods exist, in a way. I just don't think they exist as almighty, unknowable entities in some kind of heaven.

I think I can "measure" religion just as I can measure any force I can't see: by its effects. I can see lots of people doing good deeds during christmas, which is a religious time. I know lots of people pray five times a day to a god. I know millions have been slaughtered during religious wars too. Those are all effects that gods have on the real world. Since we've stablished that beliefs are subjective, I conclude that gods exist, but only as unconscious forces in our minds; and everyone believes in a different, very personal divine entity.

-R

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

Well, I'm not the one who started with the condescending tone.

I can't see anything condescending in what 23yearold has written.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Neither can I, though I apologize if I came across that way (except for that last post, but that was a response to you ....)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Quote:

you are dismissing the scientific method because it won't fit to your subjective appreciations.

I guess that goes the other way around, too. Someone else, who is not dismissing the scientific method, does so because it does fit to his subjective appreciations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
avatar

As a witch I do not dismiss sience, on the contrary, sience is "proving" more and more pieces of the old wisdom.

The biggest joke of all:
Double blind evidence.. they deny the existence of magic but the do take it in account in experiments.

For example giving half a group of patients a placebo (dummy) to rule out the healing powers that are within themselves.

The whole group will see some effect but the "working effect" of the medicine is the working of the medicine substracted by the working of the placebo

Got it ? ;D

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

The placebo effect is one of the most ridiculous things scientists blunder with. Ariesnl talks about healing powers, Christian talk about the power of prayers and other things, not very different from Ariesnl's stuff. But what do the professional modern healers do (I'm talking about just ordinary physicians)? They know the placebo effect in medical terms but they refuse to use it, because it is not exact science. They can't rely on it as they can rely on modern chemicals. Modern hospitals and health care centers seem to do everything to get rid of the placebo effect. As long as the patient gets the right pills, there's no difference how they treat him, how they speak to him and listen to what he has to say and how he says it.

Of course there are exceptions. In our town we have a Russian physician, who doesn't speak very well Finnish, but in spite of that he asks lots of questions, listens to the patient and checks alot of things that seemingly has nothing to do with the patient's problem. After visiting him, the patient feels much safer than usually after any physician. Even if the patient gets the very same pills.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
avatar

Quote:

Science is a terrible tool to study unique past events that can't be reproduced, religious or otherwise.

History isn't a science, for a reason. That said, you can adapt the method to study history: collect contemporary accounts, artefacts and archaeological data, present that in simple, neutral language, then place it into a particular context and draw conclusions from it. This is never truely objective because one can always doubt if the interpretation is correct, and indeed there are often more interpretations possible. Within that framework and with that reservation, however, the method can be applied.
Either way, that's not what I was asking about.

Quote:

I'm sure a lot of people like to insist on the scientific method because they know it's futile and they can continue in their own "subjective appreciations" without fear of their views being challenged

See, you don't understand what science is about at all! The scientific method is a way to avoid subjective interpretation as much as possible to arrive at objective truth. In so far as there is a conflict between science and religion (which there needn't be), it is on the point that religion refuses to be objective and insists that being subjective somehow makes it more believable.

Quote:

They know the placebo effect in medical terms but they refuse to use it, because it is not exact science.

Careful here! The Placebo effect has to do with a feed-back between mental health and the immune system; basically, stress reduces the efficiency of the immune system and the body's own restorative powers. Reducing stess (eg, by making people believe that they are being helped) strengthens the immune system and helps thehealing process. This is actually well known and used inthe medical world. But make no mistake: placebo's are not a viable substitute to all medication.
Let me tell you in no uncertain terms: if I do not take my medication, I die (almost did, in fact), regardless of wether I want to believe that or not.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote:

Either way, that's not what I was asking about.

Cool, because that was directed at Rampage. :)

Quote:

See, you don't understand what science is about at all! The scientific method is a way to avoid subjective interpretation as much as possible to arrive at objective truth. In so far as there is a conflict between science and religion (which there needn't be), it is on the point that religion refuses to be objective and insists that being subjective somehow makes it more believable.

I know what it is, and I'm sure it'd be nice if we could do that. But the point is we can't, for reasons you yourself gave, so why waste time harping on it if not because you don't want to risk your own views being challenged (not directed at you personally)? Religion doesn't refuse to be objective on purpose, it's just a difficult thing for the scientific method to be applied to. I have never heard of religion insisting that being subjective made it more believable; such a thing seems kinda ridiculous ....

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
avatar

Quote:

I have never heard of religion insisting that being subjective made it more believable;

I think the better wording is insisting that being subjective was the "point" of religion, not nenecessarilyhat made it believable. Not saying it isn't be a personal thing, but I'm not sure I'd want to make that the defining property.

Quote:

such a thing seems kinda ridiculous ....

Indeed! ;)

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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I think it would be impossible for mankind not to believe in something. We would go mad! :)

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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Quote:

Careful here! The Placebo effect has to do with a feed-back between mental health and the immune system; basically, stress reduces the efficiency of the immune system and the body's own restorative powers. Reducing stess (eg, by making people believe that they are being helped) strengthens the immune system and helps thehealing process. This is actually well known and used inthe medical world. But make no mistake: placebo's are not a viable substitute to all medication.
Let me tell you in no uncertain terms: if I do not take my medication, I die (almost did, in fact), regardless of wether I want to believe that or not.

But things like Reiki and Qigong can be a valuable addition to "normal" medication.
However the regular medical world refuses to reccon it's value.

you DO agree that believing in something can set something in motion ( just like NOT believing in something can stop something from happening)
If you don't believe you can do something you will never be able to do it

It's not one thing OR the other.. use them both and don't judge too quickly on people who can add to the well being of others, even if they use powers unknown to the western "Homo technicus" ;)

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

However the regular medical world refuses to reccon it's value.

Our experiences differ, then.

I have no problem with people using or advocating alternative medicine in addition to regular medication, or people using alternative medicine for non-lethal illness. I do have a problem with people dieing because some quack told them they didn't have to take their medication. Or with people who tell me that diabetes is a mental disorder that goes away as long as you believe it does (yes, that's first hand experience).

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Your pain is all in my mind!
MWAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha!!

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
avatar

Quote:

Our experiences differ, then.

I have no problem with people using or advocating alternative medicine in addition to regular medication, or people using alternative medicine for non-lethal illness. I do have a problem with people dieing because some quack told them they didn't have to take their medication. Or with people who tell me that diabetes is a mental disorder that goes away as long as you believe it does (yes, that's first hand experience).

The problem is .. there ARE money focussed "healers"who dont have your well being in mind.

some witchcraft rules that apply here:

- Always think for yourself
- Beware of those who ask money for their help. Weak spirits are easily corrupted by material posessions, and can become evil in persuit of greed.

As for diabetes:
It's a disorder in the fire element.
Thogether with what your Doc. tells you, you will help yourself if:

- you stay far away from stress
(don't poke up the fire)

- take exercise
(use the energy, energy that has no way to go will damage something)

compensate with the other elements:
- Drink enough clean water (Water)

- Breath clean air, walk in the forrest once a week
(air)

- eat well, and don't eat too much carbonhydrates
(earth)
(obvious, you'll know this but I'll put it here to complete the picture)

- Don't worry too much about it. and WANT to "balance"
I admit it's easier said than done but it will add to the balance
(spirit)

offcourse it won't take away diabetes but it will make you feel better.

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

some witchcraft rules that apply here:

I call those common sense - especially the first one.

Quote:

Thogether with what your Doc. tells you, you will help yourself if:

That is what my doctor tells me. Quite literally.

Quote:

It's a disorder in the fire element.

Not sure what that means, but if you mean it's my immune system killing off my pancreas, that's about right.

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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There's a lot of common sense in witchcraft ;)

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
avatar

As Dr Phil says, common sense isn't very common at all. That's why the things Ariesnl is rabbling about is good for all the idiots out there who don't understand that they should be drinking clean water instead of coke.

Common sense is atually something that has to be taught to most humans. By disguising it as a religion it has a much greater chance to reach out to the idiot masses.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Saying some individual doesn't have "common sense" almost always means "You don't agree with the prejudices I was taught as a knee baby".

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matt Smith
Member #783
November 2000

Quote:

Common sense is atually something that has to be taught to most humans. By disguising it as a religion it has a much greater chance to reach out to the idiot masses.

But this backfires badly when the 'idiot masses' get enough education (via TV) to realise that they were lied to about God & Devil, and then extrapolate that to they were also lied to about Good & Evil.

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
avatar

If you're a real idiot, noone can convince you that your religion is false.



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