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Esperanto
ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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However, don't forget the IR (to go) verb. My friends had some hard time trying to learn its past (fui), present (voy) and future (iré) ;) And there are too many forms for my taste.

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
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Well, English has around 380 irregular verbs.

-R

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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But you only have to memorize two extra words/verb (past and past participle). In Spanish you have to remember the full conjugation of 8 (IIRC) simple forms. That's 8x6 = 48 words/verb. Plus gerund (equivalent, more or less, to Engligh -ing form) and past participle.

When ReyBrujo said "fui", he actually meant "fui, fuiste, fue, fuimos, fuisteis, fueron". And he only mentioned past, preset and future, but that's not all of them.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Just wondering, is Spain the only country where the second person in the plural ("fuisteis") is still used? Here is virtually deprecated; you only use "vosotros" in formal letters, and only as greetings (like "vuestro servidor").

And the subjunctive... shudder

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

Rash
Member #2,374
May 2002
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Why not try Lojban instead? Much more logical (some would say too logical) and (virtually) not Eurocentric.

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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Quote:

Just wondering, is Spain the only country where the second person in the plural ("fuisteis") is still used? Here is virtually deprecated; you only use "vosotros" in formal letters, and only as greetings (like "vuestro servidor").

then how do you say it? :o

Quote:

And the subjunctive... shudder

Specially the future :o (Don't ask me the conjugation of any verb on future subjubctive because I wouldn't remember :P (edit: well, just remembered, it's like the past, but change the 'e' in the termination with an 'a': ellos (they) fueran (past) -> ellos fueren (future))).

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Hmm... I think we use usted/ustedes. Instead of saying Mañana caminareis por aqui, we would say Mañana caminaran por aqui. In informal situations Uruguay and Argentina replace usted with vos (like [vos] podes venir mañana?), in formal ones we use usted. Instead of vosotros we use ustedes even in informal speaking, though it is mostly ommited ([ustedes] pueden venir mañana?). And we replaced vuestro with su/suyo, even in formal situations, leaving the vuestro to very formal situations, like writing to an authority, or maybe when looking for a job.

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Come on, Japanese rules! If you're choosing a language for the Internet, it has a lot of merit. You know all that tone of voice stuff that gets lost in English? Well, Japanese actually has different words to go with those different tones of voice. So it's a lot easier to avoid misunderstandings in text. And of course it looks pretty (see RB's sig). ;D

But Japanese doesn't use -te iru for the future afaik. ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Rash
Member #2,374
May 2002
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Japanese is an inefficient language. It has too few sounds, meaning you need more time to convey the same amount of information. Remember Mojo Jojo?

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Never heard of it. Do enlighten me :)

Anyway we're talking about the net, right? We've got kanji. They carry loads of information. ;D

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Carrus85
Member #2,633
August 2002
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Latin is the language. All it needs is some more up-to-date words added to it, and it would rule.

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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ReyBrujo: it's the opposite here. Usted/ustedes/su is for formal situations. vos is for extremely formal situations (diplomacy, royal family...).

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Hehehe, but our vos isn't like your vos. In example, you would say Vos sos Oscar? instead of the more formal Usted es Oscar? or the correct neutral version Tu eres Oscar? (which is not used at all here, it sounds strange). Unless you can use vos as my example there; we are taught down here that vos used in that way is a corrupted spanish form only found in this area.

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
avatar

Yes, we're talking about the same vos. But the formality ladder is just reversed here. Tu eres Oscar? is the informal one, Usted es Oscar? is formal, and Vos sois Oscar is extremelly formal (almost unused now).

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Ah. Then the voceísmo (as we call it down here) is not using vos, but removing the terminations of the verbs (sos instead of sois, habes instead of habeis, corrieron instead of corristeis, etc).

My lesson for today :)

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
avatar

Finnish has only one irregular verb in common use. :)

And if you want to go formal, just switch to plural and don't omit any omittable words. Done. You are now speaking formally. :)

You don't deserve my sig.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Quote:

epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän

Hmmm... looks like an intermediate file from some obscure compiler... me likes obscurities...
The German writer Morgenstern once wrote a speech that is made up out of 2 sentences. The first one is an elaborate greeting. The second one is made up so that the last third of it consists of only auxiliary verbs resolving subordinate phrases. It does technically make sense, but read aloud, it's just blah blah blah können würden gehabt zu haben zu sein zu können zu dürfen wollen gemacht zu haben wagen.

Anyway, I've heard that:
- Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are extremely easy in terms of grammar; pronunciation is somewhat odd at times, but perfectly doable
- Mandarin Chinese has been rated the easiest language in the world by some UN committee. It has no declination, no conjugation, no tenses, no gender; basically, every mode change of any word is achieved by adding extra words. I don't know zip about this, but I found it interesting.
- C is not useful to communicate between humans; it was designed for a very specific mode of communication, and provides little possibilities to use other modes.

And finally: The discussion about which language is most useful as a "world language" is rather futile. Time will tell. I vote for Chinese, though. Not because it's so easy, but because China has an unbelievable economic growth and will probably soon be one of the most important economic powers in the world.

Quote:

It has too few sounds, meaning you need more time to convey the same amount of information

Not necessarily. Less sounds means recognition is easier and can be faster, which in turn makes faster speaking feasible.

---
Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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But if we change the global language now it'll be hell for future kids to read all the old english material we've produced. I wonder how long it would take to translate everything to the new language.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Quote:

Not necessarily. Less sounds means recognition is easier and can be faster, which in turn makes faster speaking feasible.

On the contrary. Imagine a language with only two sounds, say: "la" and "li". The size of words grows quickly as you need to convey more meaning, and the language will consist of words along the lines of "la", "lali", "lilila", "lalilalali" and so on. Now imagine speaking this language quickly; recognition becomes impossible as a flurry of a few almost identical sounds rush by. Having more sounds makes the language easier and faster to understand, in fact; the larger available permutations of sounds a word can consist of makes recognition much, much easier.

--
Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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Oscar Giner said:

n and l ???

n/ñ and l/ll, and yes, I forgot r/rr

Carrus85 said:

Latin is the language. All it needs is some more up-to-date words added to it, and it would rule.

Television is Latin, isn't it?

And I will not say more because I lost most of the thread.

Well, one last thing. Oscar: When did you go to bed? 4:30 am????

-----------------
Current projects: Allegro.pas | MinGRo

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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Quote:

Well, one last thing. Oscar: When did you go to bed? 4:30 am????

Yes... ermmm... I was helping the "Magic Kings", yeah, that was it ;D ("Reyes Magos". For non Europe (or maybe just non-Spanish?), it's our equivalent Santa Claus, but they are three instead of just one :P)

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
avatar

Just non-Spanish. Sounds like the three Magi; Caspar, Melchior, and Balthazar.

--
Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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Quote:

Sounds like the three Magi; Caspar, Melchior, and Balthazar.

Yeah, those ones.

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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Oh :o, so, why don't you gave to me what I wish, uh? >:( ;)

-----------------
Current projects: Allegro.pas | MinGRo

Dot Matrix
Member #5,124
October 2004
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Quote:

Mandarin Chinese has been rated the easiest language in the world by some UN committee. It has no declination, no conjugation, no tenses, no gender; basically, every mode change of any word is achieved by adding extra words. I don't know zip about this, but I found it interesting.

Essentially, yes. But learning the characters can be painful. Even worse, with simplified Chinese it has become even harder to infer the meaning or pronounciation of a character from its composition. The inflections aren't too hard to learn, as there are only four tones (as opposed to as many as seven in other dialects of Chinese).

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- Dot

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