As this is actually my favourite community, and I had bothered you with a sob story before, I think it's right to give you a little update. It does explain why I'm not around as much any more. And compared to my last venting, it's actually less burdening. Currently I'm struggling with a depression, and I'm starting to win.
I don't know whether I had told you this before, but in October 2011 I had for the second time attempted (actually started and chickened out) suicide. The thought that eventually stopped me was: "why the hell am I taking any human's life?". After that incident I got intensive treatment, way more adequate than the first time I was diagnosed with depression.
I have been seeing a psychotherapist weekly for a year or so now. And finally we're getting to the core of what's bothering me. So here's the story. I had always been very actively and consciously involved with my emotions; maybe because I had trouble with them in the first place. When some events occurred around my 16th, I was very confused about my emotions. That was accompanied by a depression, which only made matters worse. I didn't understand at all what was happening, and I couldn't talk with anyone about it. Especially that last fact resonated with a prior unpleasant experience. I began to think there was a place in my mind that shouldn't be. I began denying my emotions. But also my sense of discretion was messed up, because it seemed very inappropriate what I was thinking and feeling; not only to tell anyone, but also to experience. I'm sorry I have burdened you with that lack of discretion before. In the confusion that is puberty I started to identify myself with my depressed habits. Bad times.
Now me and all the psychotherapists (big credit to them) finally dug up why I was confused back then. The next step is to tackle my fear there is something fundamentally wrong with my mind, which has grown into quite a beast.
At the moment I'm actually taking a break of my feeling of obligation (and all the things I feel I'm obligated to do). This is a very counter-intuitive way to work on yourself, believe me. I'm running 3 times a week now; one time in a running therapy group. And I've picked up the recorder, got given 4 wooden ones, and now I have a big enough of a challenge finding all the time to warm them up. I had been programming sporadically, but the atticware I run is so finicky... Picked up doodling as well. A good week for me now is when I get to my hobbies and other activities; a bad week is only games and internet. But I have the routine of running and playing recorder, and all in all it's not bad considering depression. I had the luck I can live from a hand-out for young people with work impairing illnesses. I had been looking for normal day-time activities again, but I've just recently come into terms with the fact I might not be ready yet.
Hope this interests at least one reader. Shout out to all depressed people out there: meh.

Tell me about the recorder playing. I used to play the recorder when I studied church music. We had a set of recorders, soprano, alto, tenor and bass, very well sounding wooden ones. We played mainly renaissance and baroque music. You should definitely find some people to play with.

@ML:

It's no bother and that's what we're here for. It's good to hear that you're making progress. Just keep it up. Now for hopefully something more cheerful.

I had depression. Getting a place of my own cured it. This isn't a joke; the psychotherapist I was seeing at the time recommended it.

Life is pretty damn fun when you do it right.

I guess I had depression for a while. Probably not worth going into detail as the reasons are too different for the story to be useful. I got through it though.

And then Bambams showed me an Adam Sandler video.

I too was depressed for a long time. Then I took life into my own hands and now every day is better than the last.

Its good that you're getting through it. These things always come to pass.

Being depressed is just a recurring phase of life. Smile, take in some sunlight, and just try things you thought you'd never do.

I was miserable for years but am a lot better now that I go to school, go hiking, and generally just smile and take things as they come.

Remember, this too shall pass.

I've been suffering from depressions most of my life (caused by being unable to talk to people (at all), caused by very bad social phobia). But right now they are on hold while I have a gf for the first time in my life And she's also willing to help me with my phobia... and doing a much better job than my therapist

It's good you're dealing with it

I've been fighting depression for at least two decades now. I'm finally starting to successfully fight it. Takes a lot of effort and time, but its worth it.

Quoted for truth.

I used to think it "just stops" someday. It doesn't. You have to actively work towards ending its grasp on you, otherwise its likely never to end. Nothing comes free, I guess... except free energy.

And beer.

... This thread has made me wonder if depression is more common among programmers than folks from other backgrounds.

Congrats on the gf, Elias. I know how it feels.

Depression is just more common than people think.

Also, I have a theory, a person doesn't seclude themselves in front of a screen for hours a day if they aren't a little "not normal".

It saddens me to think we almost lost ya.

You aren't alone in your struggle to overcome this. You gotta remember, that eventually, if you work at it, things actually get a little better. I think that's actually the best feeling of all: realizing that things suck giant balls, but... its getting better!

EDIT:

That's actually what I was realizing just before logging on. Things do suck! But seeing some improvement is a nice feeling. Things do get better!

Thanks for the support, stories and jokes

Being in a group therapy really opened my eyes to that one. It kind of sucks, but on the other hand it gives meaning to all your efforts no matter how bad you're feeling.
IIRC 1 in 3 persons gets a (clinical) depression somewhere in their lives.

I have a sopranino, soprano, tenor, and alt. (I actually prefer the sound of the soprano, which appears to be blasphemous.) I actually have someone to play with, and we're doing simple duets now. We have a book with scores based on medieval (1500) works that we are considering playing. Most of the songs in there are for four voices, though >_< My fellow player has lots of experience, so she's giving me a good example of how the recorder should sound. (I think I still have a very ugly way of starting the notes...) And she didn't have any theoretical knowledge, so I'm glad we can mutually learn from each other.

How does such a thick book stay open?

Studing the Bible and some good grade weed cures all. Stay away from alcohol.
Thanks my advice to you.

The mind boggles.

And a jolly good meh to you too!

This song made me think of you today:

Aw, thanks Indeed relatable song.
/me clicks spoiler
bam, you're incredible! Saved.

So many depressed people!

HUGS

I recommend watching some Ajahn Brahm on youtube. He teaches meditation and tells bad jokes. He's also a very good voice to listen to as you fall asleep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N_jjY7W_fs

More & more with every day.

type568 joins the club.

P.S:
When I posted here on a similar topic, I got this:

& I listen to it from time to time up to date.

It took me a while to stop being a victim to my feelings, and realise that they are a perfectly healthy natural reaction to my environment.
Thankfully my suicidal tendencies were cured by psychedelics/magic mushrooms nearly two decades ago, which gave me a profound sense of belonging in the universe, and knowing that it would be okay if I opted out, but that I would be missed. It's nice to be loved, even if it is by nothing.

Be nice to one another, it goes too damn quick.

Too bad they don't sell any of that here :/

That's the problem, nobody is nice. E.g. at work people don't even greet me in the corridor (probably because I can't greet back, but still...).

In this world you cannot consider anything for given, and thus you should try to understand this.

Unfortunately the world is unforgiving and doesn't really get to understand you

Why can't you greet back?

Yhea Elias, why can't you greet back?

It scares me

Elias: Psychoactive substances grow everywhere in our environment, in fact I would advise people that if they were/desire to partake, then the first place to look is in one's own backyard so to speak. And please don't fuel/support the "gangsterist civil war on drugs" with your money, remember the best highs are free*. Though equally when one becomes one's own healer/herbalist/doctor/medical adviser, take your time, don't rush, do your research, and most of all do it safely (hopefully with friends/loved ones), and have fun.

(*ish).

In the same way that you wish others to understand your faults and work around them, you can imagine them thinking the same about you. They see interactions with people like us as a one-way transaction so eventually they learn not to bother. They don't benefit from it.

I am the same, but I have gotten better. You just need to work at it more. Force a smile, even if you aren't happy, and try to make eye contact briefly when you pass somebody. Hold your head up high. They say that 80% of human communication is body language. People like us just need to work at making our bodies say good things about us. Something that just comes naturally to others. Those others aren't perfect though. They have faults and weaknesses too.

I understand that smiling is uncomfortable at first. I was to a point where it actually strained my face muscles to smile because I never did it! Like any other exercise, the more you do it the easier it becomes. It doesn't take long for that feeling to go away.

Quoted for emphasis. Having people you can trust around you is paramount when experimenting with psychedelics.

Well, I wish you were right, maybe one day when you're all grownded upded we'll talk again; but it doesn't. It stops anxiety dreams, nulls mild pain and makes computer games x100,000 times better, but not depression. It helps...but wears off.

Weed puts my brain in an infinite loop

while(1)
   printf("What was I doing again?\n");

Mine is similar....

while(1)
{
  if(!stoned)
  {
     setState(_WORRY);
  }
  else
  {
     setState(_LIVE);  
  }
}

...but, I'm an eighteen year in pro.

Yeah, been there a few times, too.

I used to face it head on, take the dark thoughts as far as I could, write poetry about them, and listen to someone else's story, too (example)...

I don't know, maybe I am different or maybe I have never known happiness, but it used to work for me, when I was "deeper". I am a shallow, empty shell now. I cannot be depressed anymore, as nothing means anything to me now. Count yourself lucky, you are all better than me because you retain the ability to be depressed.

PS:
I got where I wanted to be, eventually, but it was a hollow and meaningless "victory". And now the paper boats set to sail by the ambitious child's hand still keep on evaporating like wishful seagulls down the lugubrious river as it meanders its way to the sea.

Amen...

What's probably helped me the most is to try not to think about the things that cause my depression. I used to dwell endlessly on my past, and how fucked up my life was. The problem with that is that it just makes you feel worse, and you end up in a cyclic pity party.

So my suggestion is to not do that. If you catch yourself thinking negatively about yourself or dwelling too much on shit you can't change, just stop. It does you no good, in fact it actively harms you.

After I realized that and started actually practicing that, my mood got a lot better. I eventually took a group counseling course that taught a program called CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), which funnily enough, includes the tips I mentioned above! But it also goes a few steps further.

Some of them are:

1. You aren't healthy and you shouldn't expect yourself to operate at 100% Expecting 100% out of yourself will only lead to disappointment and deeper depression. Now, this doesn't mean you give up, you just give yourself more realistic goals given your current abilities. As time goes on, you get closer and closer to 100%.

2. There are a bunch of "little" negative lies we tell ourselves all the time. Even if you don't think much of them at the time, or even realize you're doing it, it is actively harmful. CBT teaches you to counteract such thoughts with a positive one, and eventually the negative ones will stop.
Such examples include "I'm stupid", "no one likes me", "I'm lazy", "I'm annoying", and other such things. Even just saying "God I'm a dumb ass" when you do something stupid can have a cumulative effect on your mood.^[1]

3. If you stopped doing the things you love to do, start back up again. even if you don't enjoy it initially, the enjoyment will come back.

4. Everyone needs recharge time. For some thats doing the things they love to do, or just quiet time (of course that may be one of the things you love... you dirty introvert!). Regardless, you need to take time from forcing yourself to do things you should do, and let yourself do things you would normally want to do. Also doing a little nothing along with that can help.

So yeah. That course really helped me. It is quite a bit easier to handle my depression. Sadly it did absolutely nothing to help with my anxiety.

I completely agree. I spent decades doing that, being disappointed and angry about myself every day. Once I finally had enough of that and just stopped doing it, things only went up.

But the only way to actually reverse these thoughts and start accepting that there may be someone who does like me - was when someone said so. Which is quite a luxury to have though.

Yeah, I find that really annoying in my case as well.

You are a good person, Thomas Fjellstrom, and you do deserve to be told so. Your intentions are open, noble and sincere, and not cowering behind an exteriorized shield of inhibition deflectors. Actually, I can extend that observation in varying degrees to many in this particular "community" (I still have a bit of trouble thinking of internet centers of intellectual exchange as "communities"), as compared to most others. It is different, without pompously "marching about" aggressively declaring so. Someone with the concerns of the OP can quite openly state them and receive the appropriate feedback; elsewhere he would have been torn apart by several vultures that would not even have waited for him to stop kicking, so to speak.

Commendable. But just in case I am misinterpreted, as I frequently am, I in no way intend any of what I state, before or after this sentence, to seem pretentious. They are observations that I believe in.

On the topic of depression; you are so right with everything you say in so far as transitional or periodically recurrent depression, even to an abnormal level (let us say, contemplating suicide), is concerned. And bamccaig would appear to be so right about the social benefit game that can cause a case of acute depression to graduate into long term, chronic depression by deepening the cycle in one's mind as a result of peer reactivity.

But then there are people who's brain is physically "hard-wired" for depression. Whether this is more common in women or is hidden in men, I do not know, but both cases of this type that I have been in contact with were women. Well overweight women. Both required constant medication and long term treatment by professionals. Overeating appeared to be part of their own, flawed solution. The strangest thing was that both were the most outwardly cheerful women you could hope to meet, who would laugh heartily at jokes and funny situations, had engrossing hobbies, and both were excellent conversationalists. Though I am in doubt as to whether their jollity was a consequence of the medication, what was obvious when talking to them (which I used to do for hours) was that even in the center of the most hilarious events they detected a nucleus of melancholy that would later come back, grow and haunt them.

I would think that it would be worth confirming - if someone is relatively young but past puberty - that a continuation or deepening sense of what is described in John Clare's poem "I Am!" is in fact not a clinical case that requires synapse and such medications before taking the social adaptation course (this is where I think the advice of self medication with certain herbs or even recreational drugs would be very dangerous). The social adaptation scheme is of course essential, I think, but would be a pointless exercise if the person is predisposed to depression because of their brain structure. In my layman's experience with people, most I have known who go through a period of depression do so as a result of situations in their existences, and were able to overcome it, eventually. Some with help, some without. They were not "physically" predisposed to depression, which seems to be a minority, fortunately.

As for my association, even "mutual gravitation", towards people with disorders (depressed, autistic, and even sociopathic characters) probably was a result of my own far from perfect adaptations. On a person to person basis with these people, I am glad to say that the relationships, though not conclusively remedial, were always mutually therapeutic for some reason I cannot really pinpoint. However, I believe I have lost that form of art, now.

That all said, I honestly do not think the OP is clinical, as he is capable of reasoning himself out of the extremes quite soundly.

Most people who have depression do not require medication long term. However, anti-depressant drugs are a very useful way to help the newly-diagnosed alleviate their symptoms until they have learnt other ways of coping with depression.

Yeah. That would be me. I've been clinically depressed for most of my life. I still fight it now. I should note, that I've been diagnosed with BiPolar 2^[1], GAD and Social Phobia, and could probably add Borderline Personality Disorder to it if I talked with a shrink again.

What I stated above is how I've managed to cope with my problems. Whether that will work for everyone is up for debate, but I do believe that for something to work, you have to want it to work. Too many people in that course I took thought it was silly and pointless, and never gave it a chance. It did seem silly to me, and rightly so, some of it is really silly for a normal person, but I and others like me are not normal, and you have to realize that, and work with that.

Indeed. Some people can manage without them. I was not one of them. At the very least it would take many years longer for me to do it without the extra help. I was and am not willing to wait that long.

It's possible to do some re-wiring. There's something like bad habits in way of thinking. People who worry much, actively wire themselves to worry again. And again. People who often think depressive thoughts actively wire themselves to think depressive thoughts. People who laugh a lot, actively... well, you get the point.

All I can say is that its agonizingly slow, deliberate, and hard to do. Is it worth it? You bet your ass its worth it.

A more or less general observation that I have made;

It is strange how a person's accomplishments are kind of inversely proportional to their level of "defects" and "flaws". Examples are strewn throughout history. And then those relatively defect free people, with apparently everything going for them except the impetus to make the most of what they had and DO what it took to make their aspirations bear fruit, have the nerve to sit back, getting comparatively nowhere themselves except to the level that society dictated them, to scorn and deride with bilious envy those who have accomplished against odds.

May it be a guiding light in the tenebrous and gloomy wilderness...

One of the observations the people at the CBT course made was that people who are depressed may be harder on themselves than maybe they should otherwise be. So when failures do happen they effect them a little more than normal.

I dunno, man... You all sound like I was when I was in my late teens and twenties, and now I can't help but think I'll buy you all a spine next time I'm at the mall. Now, I've had a hard life in ways, many anecdotes wouldn't be believed here, but back in my twenties I sought out some of the wisest and most solid people I could and asked about this stuff. As it turned out, they'd had a far worse life than I did, and I remembered that phrase "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche. Obviously that doesn't apply to polio etc., but in a general way it's quite relevant. Just point your nose at what you do best, disregard the envious negative people (which will be most people you know, if you're a programmer), and keep putting one foot after the other (metaphorically). "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

Here's an uplifting video, radiating with confidence. Yes, it was choreographed, but losers with a shitty attitude couldn't have done it.

It's true Arthur. But everybody has different experiences and preparation for dealing with this stuff. In the end though you can't feel sorry for yourself and just have to give thanks for what you have and move on with a smile. Life's hard for everyone.

Now imagine it starting in your pre-teen years and lasting into your thirties.

I can't say I've had an incredibly rough life, but it was bad enough. I know people who've had far worse times of it, and are doing better off than I had been till recently. Does that make me weak? Maybe. But what I and others don't need is people saying "It's nothing compared to what I went through, you should be A-O-K! Wuss! Here have a toke".

Blah.

Hence my statement about asking people who apparently had their shit together about what made them the way they are.

That's part of the problem. You shouldn't give an ats rass if someone says that. You shouldn't try to please people and you shouldn't let other's views of you affect your own view of yourself. And usually when someone calls you out on a problem, it's their problem, not yours.

Quite often because they're trying to build up their self esteem at the expense of yours, like a drowning swimmer trying to dunk his rescuer underwater like he was a float.

[EDIT]

Related:
"Keeping up with the Jones" is a waste of time because they're too busy trying to impress you to see what you've done. Do you really need that shiny new gadget, or you think it'll make you "cool" and worthy of attention?

[EDIT2]

Don't try to be "well rounded" in the sense of Jack of All Trades, because you'll be the master of none. That's not to say it's ok to spend all your time at the computer to the detriment of exercise etc., just do what makes you feel good (talents, not drugs) and hang out with the people who make you feel good. Confession: I've avoided people who made my day because they were considered "weird" or whatever. I have also "sandbagged" to keep the leeches from demanding all my time to fix their computer or car or whatever to the point where it's a habit, and I can't shut it off when it would be advantageous.

[EDIT 3]

When someone is slandered, consider the possibility that it's just a nasty rumor spread by a lamer, in other words, do your experiences with this person bear out the possibility that the rumors are true? I myself have experienced times where everyone has adored me when I haven't done anything special, and other times when everyone gave me the evil eye, and all I can think of is what has the rumor mill done now? Don't be too quick to believe idle chatter, whether it's aimed at yourself or someone else.

You're assuming everyone has a choice in how their brain handles things. Many do. some don't.

Thats something I (and people like me) have to work on. One of the roots of my problem is people saying that kind of shit to me all my life. One could say I care too much about how people think of me.

Indeed. That's the goal. It's not easy to rewire decades of brain washing and a genetic predisposition to BiPolar and Depression.

I worry way too much about just about everything. Even with all of the tools I've learned, I haven't gotten rid of it all. In time I will, but that day is not this day.

People saying things like "Buck up! Nothings wrong with you! You're just being a baby" just feeds my already low self esteem. And it pisses me off. Basically they are saying they don't believe mental health is "a thing" at all. As if physical injury is the only valid problem one can have.

To those people, I say "fuck off".

Well, it's a start! Disclaimer: Not to say I don't greatly respect your contributions to Allegro etc!

[EDIT]

As far as your talents (programming, whatever) "drive it like you stole it"!

Indeed. If you really want to know, I've improved greatly the past few years. Used to be I couldn't leave the house for more than incredibly urgent things (like food) for months and months. Now, I have an actual job, took a trip to my mom's place in Nova Scotia for a few weeks, and may hit up Chicago soon. Oh and I hang with some cool people at a local Hacker Space here in town.

append:

You don't spend 10 years doing something and not at least become competent.

I taught myself how to program instead of go to highschool. figured I should do something with my time at least

I don't leave now, except for food and joRb.

I look at craigslist once in awhile to see if a job fits me, rather than cab driving. The "tax refund" rush this year was a total letdown (Thanks, Obama!).

I haven't been to my hometown (or contacted anyone) since 1978.

I don't know of anyone like that.

And yet, I don't feel deprived, except for not buying stuff I really "need", such as an external drive to back up stuff, or an electric guitar with working electronics.

[EDIT]

I'd feel the loss of allegro.cc, the interchange of ideas with smart people around the world that I trust, not astroturfing, but speaking their minds.

I need to get better, cause there's shit I want to do, yo.

It seems to me you're doing quite well already, up in the top fractions of the 99th percentile.

I'm not sure what you mean?

COOL!

I've sent you a Linkedin request for contact TJ (you may refuse as you like )

But each day is one day closer, and that's for sure.

Well...a.cc sure is a nice place, can't be wrong about it.

I'm not contributing to the thread because I've dealt and deal somewhat daily with this on my wife's health....and since I'm lucky enough not to be (or ever been) anxious, depressed or being generally concerned about my mental health...I find it difficult to immerse myself in these kind of feelings to be useful beyond encouraging anyone to find the strenght in their very self.

Then again, I consider myself a non-accomplisher and I am constantly thinking about change, to the point one could consider that an obsession, save for the fact that it's not interfering in any way in my own lifestyle and what in general can be considered "normal" (which is one awful word in its own context)

EDIT: missed the last characthers of the post...edited to retype them

I think the most insidious thing about depression is its a change in how your brain works. Most people don't even know they are depressed until someone tells them.

People tend to find introspection hard to begin with, but when your brain is lying to you, it makes it harder than it needs to be.

The other part is if you're depressed, you just don't give a crap. It's tough to fight, especially if you don't realize it's a problem.

That explains why it took me so long to even try and do something about it. The time from when I was about 10 to about 30 I never actually tried to analyze the problem. Because it just was too painful and hopeless.

I also wouldn't ever have admitted that I have a depression during that time (so for example if someone had suggested seing a psychiatrist, I'd have said no) and tried to camouflage it (mostly by never talking to anyone). And as it got more and more apparent that I have a serious problem over the years, actually thinking about it just got more and more painful so I simply avoided doing that. Every day

(Luckily I found some guys on IRC I could start talking to a few years ago, which in turn made me realize a lot about myself. Not sure where I would be now without that )

Congratulations! That had all the tact and finesse of a rhinoceros crafting a Swiss watch. You played the Devil's Advocate there with admirable mastery. Nonetheless, the underlying theme is clear, and it would appear to be a sinister attempt at assisting by putting the theory into practice, simulating an inane mis-comprehension of the condition of depression, to the end of testing the grade of recovery of those here who do have the condition. Here is another one...

"Have some chicken soup. It cures everything."

This would be the same Friedrich Nietzsche who produced this gem of a line;

...and who also (hello, hello) suffered from severe depression. I therefore concede - and I say this with the uttermost respect for you - that you have proffered before us an excellent example. Nihilism was my own solution, back in the day, and it has worked a treat, as it has been over sixteen years since I have allowed anything to be important enough to get "depressed" about. It may still be there; it just does not get me anymore. The following quote of yours is the exact same approach of self indifference that I found to function and which extricated me, personally, from recurrent bouts of being stuck in the mire and allowed me to achieve my own goal, deadpan as my reaction to its accomplishment may have been...

However, those who would really mean that (top, first quoted) type of comment are clearly confusing depression with normal teenage or an under-achiever's transient despondency. People with depression are not self pious mitherers. Quite the contrary, they are potentially the world's greatest achievers. The evidence is right here and has already been pointed out...

I would take it as face value and not read anything subversive or sarcastic into it, Thomas Fjellstrom. I believe that is what he is trying to demonstrate to you, for your own good. And then there is this evidence...

...which, believe it or not, would seem an inconceivable feat to most people, but is actually characteristic of the sort of determination a person with depression is capable of manifesting.

Winston Churchill, who lead a country through the world's most deadly conflagration and kept it on the winning side, and Abraham Lincoln, who dared to go against the grain of the norm of his society, are only two well known cases of people with depression who achieved something. There are many more, some not so noble, but none sat in a pool of their own tears waiting for someone to pick them up and commiserate.

Maybe I should have picked one of the suggestions at the bottom.

I just don't find those results all that impressive

The depression I have now is classified as recurrent. I'm taking medication and that is helping a lot. In fact, except for a little trouble sleeping and concentrating, I'm feeling fine at the moment.
I was very ambitious^[1]. I decided to test my dreams to reality, and see which one would change. Then depression hit, and everything I tried made me stress out too much^[2], sitting on my ass felt best, but I still felt miserable. I thought I wasn't meant to achieve anything at all. The problem was I didn't have anybody to talk to about my real problems; in fact I hardly recognized my real problems.
That after dealing with this issue I'm done with medication and depression, is more of a statement of hope^[3] than something that was told to me. In the very least I should be less likely to have another depressive episode, unless the therapy doesn't work at all for me.(Then in the very least I'll know it doesn't work for me.)
All in all I had a pretty easy life. That makes me feel guilty a bit. It also magnifies the thought that I have only myself to blame for being a loser. The most inadequate part of the first time I was diagnosed with depression was that I wasn't properly educated about depression. It was assumed it were just some individual episodes. Actually being taught about depression gave me something to blame. This is a very weak attitude, but it has helped me to move forward.
Again, I appreciate all the posts here. (Even from uneducated people like Arthur <_< ) \o/ All the depressed people, throw your hands in the air like you just don't care.

I kin reed 'n' 'rite 'n' cipher too! Wun an' naught is naught! Wun an' wun is too!...

That said, I'm watching "Every Which Way But Loose" and it just makes me happy inside. I invite you all to watch it and tell me if those characters would ever suffer from "depression" like you guys tell it. Yes, they do some pretty risky stuff, but they know the world won't end if they die, unlike mama's special snowflake.

They're not real Arthur.

No, but they're close enough to real people I've known.

[EDIT]

As a matter of fact, when I first put my two cents in this thread, I'd just spend a half-hour thinking about my month-long visit to my sister and brother in law back in '74. I think I mentioned him here before, yammering about us having a contest to see who'd step out furthest on a sandstone ridge (rounded off to a two meter radius) above a 130 meter drop to the rubble piled up below. Anyway, the anecdote I'm getting at was that he was driving along in his 283 Comet, with me as the passenger. We were going down a street, and about 20 bikers spread out to block the entire road. He slowed down a bit to ask me a couple questions. "Do you know why they did that?" "No" "They think they're gonna kick our asses! Do you know what we do next?" "No!" He doesn't answer as he drags the automatic down into first, and the upside down air cleaner lid howls as those intake valves grab air. The bikers scatter wildly in plenty of time for us to drive through the gap at 50 mph. Then (when I was safely back home) we found out my dad was in jail (again) and he was in pretty bad shape. He'd gone to Rattlesnake Road on the reservation, no doubt looking for some whores, but some guys had spread out and blocked the road. He stopped, and the result showed all over his face and the way he limped up to the glass at the visitor booth. I asked "Why didn't you floor it, so they'd get out of the way?" He replied "What? And kill them?" I replied "They'd have gotten out of the way" and he said no.

Since then, I've done that about three times, while driving cab and the passengers always freak out "What if they hadn't gotten out of the way?".

Shit, it's no use explaining

Nobody is without problems. Even you, though you wouldn't admit it I bet.

People with BiPolar 1 are very prone to doing crazy dangerous stuff. It's the whole "Manic" part of "Manic Depression" (aka BiPolar). Often people with it don't even get a serious depressive episode till they are middle aged. If they live that long.

Arthur: how would you know how those people in the movie feel inside? I could fake a smile and laugh any time, even when I felt like the world was collapsing.

See my edit above

[EDIT]

You get scared, yeah, but you don't let it make you run and hide, and vote for more government power. "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees" etc.

[EDIT2]

Oh, sure, I have lots of problems. I remember talking to my sister when I was about eight (?) and she said kids grow up to be like their parents, and therefore we shouldn't ever have kids who'd be in hell like we were, and for the last 30 years I always get cold feet when getting too close to a girl, thinking of that. I've never been married, only shacked up for five months at a time at most, but I don't whine how I'm "depressed", and need medication that apparently doesn't work. I am admitting here for the first time ever that I did go to some "therapist" on some sliding scale in '81 or so, and it was like talking to a Martian that had grown up in Leave It To Beavers neighborhood.

You've got it wrong. It's I'd rather live on my feet than die on my knees.

I still don't get what fear has to do with depression.

Depression is mostly about brain chemistry. You believe in science right?

Yes. I also believe that I can remember how to click on bookmarks to get to allegro.cc via brain chemistry. It sure isn't magnetism.

Arthur. You put on this tough guy persona... like you have something to prove... like you're the hardest motherfucker on the forums. I really don't understand why you feel like being a badass is the way to live your life...

I think being a wimp is not the way to live your life. Grab it by the horns, etc. If it seems like I'm bragging, all I have to say is I don't bring this stuff up until it seems relevant.

I'm more confused than before. How does being depressed make you a wimp.

Who was being a wimp? Yeah sure, in some cases you need to man up, but depression is a real medical condition. You can't just decide to not be depressed and suddenly you're not depressed anymore. You can beat depression but just because you're depressed doesn't mean you're a wimp. You're cheating yourself if you don't beat it though.

Wimps get medical students disease very easily.

Ok, doctor.

Schizophrenia? Bipolar disorder? All wimps. Psychology? A whole profession exists just because people are such big pussy's. Decades upon decades of complex studies and development in this area are all total and complete bullshit. Why? Because we can attribute all of peoples problems to them being wimps.

Simple.

My dad claimed my mother had been diagnosed with schizophrenia, but I think it was due to epileptic seizures of the limbic system (emotions). And there was a weirdo tattoo artist that claimed to be bipolar, but a little attitude adjustment would fix that quite quickly. I suppose you all think I have the opinion I'm smarter than doctors who've studied for years, but I ask you how often they come up with correct results. My landlord has been fighting with the Veterans Administration about his leg and hip pain, at first they said there was a blockage where an artery branched off, then they said it was necrosis of the bone, and they actually replace one hip, but not the other. He dragged out his cane today for the first time in many months. And a few months ago, there was a flurry of reports how Watson (the Jeopardy playing robot) had gotten up to 90% accuracy diagnosing people, and doctors could only do 50%.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-02/11/ibm-watson-medical-doctor

I know it's really easy to just blindly put faith in doctors or whatever pixie in the sky with ten rules instead of facing reality.

No, it's a lot easier to just put blind faith in yourself... but it's about the stupidest thing you can do.

Whatever. I'm tired of arguing now, I'll never bring it up here again.

Your call.

Yeah, thats the stuff that pisses me off.

What I think Arthur doesn't realize is that its fucking hard to beat back depression. Those people that are actually working on it are not wimps.

I don't have too much sympathy for people that don't work on it, and complain and moan.

you sound exactly like the people that went to the same CBT program as I did and left after a couple/few sessions. "Why isn't this fixed right away!", "This is stupid!". etc. They didn't want it to work, and thus, it didn't. You have to actually be willing to try, rather than sit there and expect magic to happen.

And I admit that the CBT info did sound silly! It really did. But I didn't let that stop me from actually trying to follow the program. And in the end, it helped a lot. I didn't cheat myself out of a useful experience.

It's actually electro-magnetism. lots of electrical signals going back and forth. The chemistry is what regulates things, but it still is a big part em

append:

Funny that. It works wonders for me. I wouldn't be able to have my job with out it. One levels out the BiPolar mood swings, and the other helps with the anxiety. With the help, I am able to work on my issues more than I could without.

Come to think of it: if I were to follow Arthur's suggestions and just man up I would have never started to solve my problems. Sure, I would be a Real Man and would be going through life as a hard motherfucker. But the deeper problems would still be there and just be ignored.

Its a shallow solution and doesn't really work. Well, except if you consider staying in your house all the time ("except for food and joRb.") normal. But I guess that's how Real Men work.

Indeed. You should see how well it's worked out for someone I know.

She ignored it and overworked her whole life to the point now where she's blacking out for hours at a time, but yet still doing stuff, she just doesn't remember what happened. And often, she got hurt in the process.

So yeah, ignoring your problems won't make them go away. They'll just come back to bite you.

While I do not concede on AK attitude, I still understand fully.

For the record, I think that "manning up" may be the best metaphore for "go stright down resolving your problems instead of ignoring them". And not the other way 'round.

Or, in TJ's word:

On the other hand (unfortunately), there ARE doctors that live on Neptunus and wouldn't get it straight on you whilst luck out on others....and there ARE methods that ARE scinetifically silly

My wife went to one of them...when gettning into parental relationships problem he came up with something along the lines..."you shouldn't sweat it so much, probably your mother's gonna get some serious illness and pass away faster than you think".

I was somewhat horrified, giving I have NO parents and never knew my mother, I aske er to stop seeing that guy (that OH did wonders with her cousin's panic strikes and stuff).

Turns out he had some serious cancer that wiped him in sort of 8 months.

Do not put blind faith in doctors, but HELL you should trust medicine (keep an eye on medical practices thou, unfortunately those are human, not science).

Oh and Brain is chemistry...fear...happiness...anxiety...thay ALL revolve around chemical reactions.

It's the behavioural reaction to that chemistry that's not really in control.

It was the complexity of these argumetns that almost made me choose medicine as my trade....almost.

Since Arthur left, I'll say in his defence that it's (apparently) near impossible to imagine a depression, if you haven't experienced it. Especially if you're not knowledgeable on the subject. I used to think people with depression we're weak weirdo's too. "Weak" actually sums up depression pretty nicely.

It's very often connected. More than half of the people in my support group I'd say also suffer from fear/anxiety in addition to depression - one causing/increasing the other.

Anyway, I couldn't really argue strongly against being called a wimp or a loser. There is no apparent reason why I never did the things I should have after all (other than "I was afraid" or "I was depressed"). But doesn't mean being told that helps me in any way - in fact just the opposite. Being told "man up" or "just do it", when I can't, only makes me feel worse and less able to actually do it

Sometimes I think the only thing I really pay my therapist for is to have someone who doesn't just tell me what to do but also say a few nice things about me, to counter that vicious circle (she's not CBT though but PCT).

Depression in a person with a healthy brain is caused by making the choice to feel bad about stuff, repeatedly.

There are two ways to get out of such a depression.
Either by massive positive events that basically reset your mind.
Or you realize that you are making those choices and practice catching yourself and reprogram yourself to make good feeling choices instead.

I have not practised it much myself, but brainwashing is supposedly effective and you can brainwash yourself. You were doing it unconsciously getting into depression, and you can do it consciously to get out of depression.

I bet Arthur would be interested to learn that I spent a good number of nights during the time that I had depression on top of buildings in the CBD. I would scale them without any equipment, and if I wanted to get from one building to another I would jump (in the dark), no matter how many stories above the pavement I was.

It wasn't until a few years later that I learnt what the term fear actually meant - when I was diagnosed with social phobia. People had described the emotion to me before; telling me how they had felt in life-threatening situations, but I had never (and still have never) felt any emotion at all when I'm in physical danger. It was during an anxiety treatment course, when they were teaching us how to identify the physical and cognitive signs of anxiety that I realized that this was what other people felt when they had been afraid of things.

Luckily, I only suffer/ed from a "mild"(:P) depression: Had been diagnosed with mental exhaustion(burnout) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia in late 2011. Got to eat some pills(Trimipramine and some painkillers for the condition also caused severe physical symptoms, most prominently back/shoulder/arm and hand pain up to a point where programming or drawing was impossible) for a few months, was supposed to go to psychotherapy too.

I didn't go to psychotherapy because I did not have the strength to go outside and find a therapist. Basically all I wanted was to sit in my cave and be left alone. I knew that silence and time were all I really needed, all I could bear back then. It very much felt like a life threatening state to be in. Highly unpleasant can't begin to describe it and heh, if that's just a "mild" depression, I don't want to know what a real one feels like.

Eventually I stopped taking the pills, started exercising regularly, cut down on coffee and beer and got back to doing things I used to like before the depression, despite not feeling any joy at first. Also changed my diet to include more fruits, vegetables and proteins and almost no sugar or sweets. One thing that also helped a lot was finding a low profile job, where I can work just 6 hours a day, because more than that quickly wears me out and makes me feel miserable again.

Life's slowly getting better. Loneliness prevails though for I still don't want to meet people most of the time.

I want to add, I got most of all the right pointers for the above mentioned changes from this community right here. Rock on allegro.cc.

That sounds a heck of a lot like BiPolar doing risky things just cause.

Wait, doing risky things just because could be a symptom of bipolar? I have a friend who's been doing risky things "just because" his whole life.

He once flipped his moms car 360° on a remote road when he was going 100 kph and drifting. (he survived, he always does!) I asked him why. He just said something like "I dunno, I just felt like it". Scary stuff.

It wasn't so much that I did things "just because." The reason I would climb up the outside of the building was because I wanted to be at the top of it, looking down on everything, and I didn't want to set off alarms breaking in to the buildings, so I climbed them. The reason I would jump from one to the other was because it was quicker than climbing down and then back up again.

It just never really occurred to me that I could be endangering myself by doing so, as I never learnt how to fear physical threats. My entire emotional spectrum is skewed from most people's. Probably due to Asperger's.

Yeah, risky behavior (including gambling, alcohol and drug abuse) is a symptom of mania.

It is a symptom of bipolar. But as any allgroite should know by now, correlation is not causation.

That to me is "just because". but saying "just because" was just me being silly "just because". :-x Doesn't really matter what rationale a manic person has for it, in the end.

Possible. I do know that people with aspergers don't have the same ability to understand non obvious ques.

Well, I do also do some things for no apparent (at least as far as I can tell) reason. Not dangerous things, but weird things like laughing. When I get asked why I'm laughing I can't even find a reason. I just felt like laughing. That is what I consider doing something "just because."

There are probably similar cognitive reasons for why I do these things and why manic people just do things, namely poor impulse control. However, as you no doubt already know, you can't simply take a symptom and go "Symptom A is a sign of Disorder B."

Also, with poor impulse control, the action occurs pretty much simultaneously with the impulse. Their is essentially no conscious thought involved. When I was climbing buildings, I would plan my route to the top (because I was lazy and didn't want to have to come down halfway to find another way), so it was definitely not doing it on an impulse.

That's one of the most obvious symptoms, yes. Though, I also miss a lot of what to other people would be obvious clues.

Thats sortof included in what I meant.. To most people they are obvious, or even subconscious, for a person with aspergers iirc, they just can't read those ques.

depends on how pedantic you want to be. I for instance want to be very pedantic. You CAN simply take a symptom and say "Sympton A is a sign of Disorder B" but that doesn't mean a person with Symptom A has Disorder B

A person in deep mania will choose to do things like base jumping or sky diving or what not, those are definitely not things you can just say you did on impulse. They have to be planned, unless you want things to go horribly horribly wrong.

Good points, but I can assure you I'm not bipolar.

I'm not saying you are

I'm not saying you're saying that... I mean your not saying your saying she said he said.. what?

At the very least I can say we're both nuckingfutz.

Speak for yourselves

I'm speaking for all of us.

I know... I meant yourselves as in you and all your multiple personalities.

You say that like you didn't know that I didn't know that.

Luckily I don't actually have that particular problem!

I didn't know which of you I was talking to.

That's seems a lot like something a bipolar person would say...

It is kind of what I did, and the second paragraph what I do now with my time off (but then, I am exhausted during my time off). I used to do this sort of thing, when I was younger...

I have had 24 motorcycle accidents and a number of other close calls doing other risky stuff, including climbing a known active volcano (Tungurahua) and it erupting when I was almost at the summit (ruined a camera with ash). I started BMX at 10 years old and I think the number of times I skinned my elbows or cracked my head (no helmet, in those early days!) at the skating rink must exceed 100. I was always elated for days after these events, even if I was injured, and I still regard them as the high points of my existence. Colors were brighter, senses sharper, time slower; that sort of stuff. Golden moments. The low used to come when I had to get down to picking up the pieces after the crashes, which was always a long and costly process, especially with the motorcycles.

This I still do, though infrequently now...

...and though people laugh with me to start with, they soon stop and wonder why I have not. It is uncontrollable, and the subject that started it keeps coming back and tickling me again. It is hilarious.

Finally, 8 years ago, I got this, too.

Don't know about the Dysthymia bit, and I did not take anything except painkillers (and it was the worst pain I have known). Likewise, I have never gone to a doctor because of my "things", I just regard it as part of my character. Anyway, I overworked myself into a physical wreck by single-handedly taking on a task at work that nobody wanted to touch even as a team. It was like a dare, or a personal crusade for me, and I did it, but at a cost. Still have parethsesia in zones down my left arm and in my hand (two fingers and thumb), and pain in my shoulder. I also got and still have IBS, during that period. Maybe it was related.

I still do a very high profile job (a well known, high stress job), with up to twelve hours of duty period in 24, six days a week, with a highly variable time table (ie; any time my cell phone rings, sometimes at 03:00 HRS). I would feel dead without that job, now, and it has taught me responsibility and a high regard for safety.

You know, this thread is the first time in my existence that I have been able to address these issues, just because there are other people describing similar things? It really is a lonely, cold world.

This is why group therapy is such a powerful tool. It leaves you realizing that there are other people out there leading very diiferent lives, who have accomplisged many different things, but who, at their core, are JUST LIKE YOU. When your life up until that point has told you that that you are a weirdo freak.

well I am a weirdo, but thats a completely separate issue

Yes and no. You might also find out that, at the core, you're a lot weirder than anyone you'll ever meet :p

That's when you sue your therapist for putting you in a room full of boring normals.

And that's when your therapist tells you, "Ah, I didn't realise you were an American. Go home and you'll fit in."

You are definitely not alone. I have had clinical depression all my life. I have been fighting it big time for the last year and haven't been able to work for the last 2 mos. I have taken anti-depressant for the last 15yrs and they were working great until I hit menopause, sorry guys I have to bring up the word, it screws with our hormones and makes everything that was working STOP! So what is my point? I am not sure there is one, I am still struggling, I go back to work 5/20 because I have a mortage to pay and can't afford not to but sucide is never an option. It only hurts those who love you. So you put one foot in front of the other, that is as soon as you force yourself to roll over and set up and keep on movin because there are no do overs in life.

I just want to say that from experience, this is the best and most accurate summary of depression I've ever seen.

Buddhists have been saying for millenia, that there is no single I, if at all. It seems that we are composite minds that move and change all the time, it is only our struggling to maintain a sense of identity that causes mental anguish. This is something I tend to grok with sombunal the times.
It also seems (and in all cases I can only ever speak for myself), that silencing the internal dialogue through "meditation" has given me the gratuitous grace that I long for, though I find it difficult to maintain this inner peace for long in my environment. Particularly for no reason I seem to love thinking, the pointless art of philosophy. Though equally I am aware that it seems my best thoughts are not thunked, but rather arise seemingly spontaneously. I am also learning that I am not my thoughts, and that it is just one part of my consciousness, which extends in many non-verbal/linguistic areas/experiences. Indeed my consciousness seems to escape this mortal coil, and sometimes it is hard to know where I am meant to stop outside of the bio-feedback I receive from the traditional physical senses. It seems there are as many if not more "me's" as there are people in the world. I would tentatively suggest we are all "connected" but I don't want to speculate more, as it involves personally experiences, the content of which would be likely meaningless to another.

Anyway I think my depression is a fucking fantastic thing, that at least reminds me I am not a robot running on a shitty operating system, like the rest of the somnambulists around me. I have also learnt to be discrete about my feelings, thoughts and experiences as "they" seem quite ready to crucify anyone for speaking out of turn.

I also find programming helps my depression, especially dealing with so many "maybes", possibilities, potentialities, miracles, and other flux like mutable realities. There is something reassuring and logical about coding, knowing that for the most part I control all the variables, and if something does not work the way I intended, it is due to my own mistake/lack of comprehension, and something that I can rectify, overcome. There is comfort in those 1's and O's.

N.B. None of the above requires the presence of any flying spaghetti monster from outer-space.

I'd instead say it's just a disease (and for some, maybe an injury?). It's something impeding you a lot and causing you a lot of pain. Like getting the flu, or like a broken leg. Depression just causes quite a bit more suffering than either of those and is a lot harder (or impossible) to heal.

{"name":"one-last-treatment.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/f\/fff1b2c5d5b579e0243edd7e825f3af3.png","w":701,"h":701,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/f\/fff1b2c5d5b579e0243edd7e825f3af3"}

http://www.explosm.net/comics/3171/

Ah, if only.

Have you tried it?
/me tickles Fjellstrom

My understanding of Buddhism is that the cause of suffering is attachments. You suffer because you attached to things being a way that they currently aren't.
The solution is to let go.
You can still work towards things becoming what you want, but accept that they may never be.

One specific thing about the mind is that when you try to control it you keep getting a lot of chatter about everything except what you want to do. But when you sit down and tell yourself you're just gonna let the mind do whatever it wants, then it's suddenly silent.

I have not yet succeeded in getting stuff done and letting go at the same time.

We should all try tickling people who are frowning today and report the results. It could be very interesting...

I usually works wonders with my babies

Someday, I'll sell or give away all the crap I've accumulated over the years which I don't need anymore and never "use" again (games, movies, etc.).

The long term plan for me is to live a simple life, focused on creating stuff, instead of on acquiring more and more useless garbage. Currently I'm still too attached to that garbage to let go.

"Letting the mind do whatever it wants" sounds like a wonderful idea. For me that implies not having to worry about anything and life should be easy that way, because you'll never force yourself to anything either, it would be some kind of autopilot mode where you can sit back, relax and enjoy the view.

Actually, according to research, circumstances account for only 5 - 10% of your total happiness. It's true that stuff wont make you happy, but less stuff wont make you happier either.

I found reading The How of Happiness helped me understand how we work in terms of what does and does not makes us happy. Yes, I realize the title sounds stupid. Yes, I do realize the cover looks even more foolish, but its all based on long-term studies and it even cites sources!

Plus, when you read it, it makes sense. A lot of advice mentioned here is in there, which means it can't be completely off.

I thought it was desire. If you desire nothing, there is no pain. But desiring nothing leads to an empty life in my opinion - basically doing only the necessities to survive and meditate all day. Will that bring happiness? For some, I guess. But if you have an ounce of ambition, I think not.

Would you like one of us to put up bail for you after you do try it?

Buddhism is certainly in my experience not about not desiring. It does seem to involve a certain realization that we do desire, in much the same way we think, and breathe. The point so to speak, is not to become identified/attached to those concepts/rituals/habituations as self, as we are mutable personalities that change with the weather and seasons, even from moment to moment. Or so it seems, and is said.

One of my favourite descriptions of Buddhism, is that it is the start of an opening dialogue of exploration.

I guess you can cherry-pick as with all religions. Even though there are many versions of Buddhism, isn't a central "tenet" that the origin of suffering (dukkha) is desire (tanha)?

I think the idea makes sense. Certain things give us pleasure. We desire these things because of it. If we can't get the things and thus no pleasure, we suffer. Letting go of desire means no suffering. I guess my main problem is when it's taken too far (eg renouncing all conventional living, becoming essentially an ascetic). Part of the challenge of being human is dealing with the suffering, not eliminating it by sacrificing all other sources of happiness. But then again, I'm no expert and not really religious/spiritual.

Show me a person who claims they are without desire, and I will show you a liar.

Buddhism generally expounds the "middle path", which isn't generally about negating aspects of the self, but waking up to what one was, is and always will be, buddha incarnate, in the here and now.

Trying to eliminate suffering/desire is just as daft as stop breathing, or stop thinking by an act of will(other than such silliness as suicide). But the "masters of old" generally liked to encourage this in the student/sleeper, along the reasoning of "the fool who persists in his folly will become wise".

There are no tenets of Buddhism per se, the "central core" is merely a bunch of sayings alleged attributed to Siddhartha/Gautama Shakyamuni written down many years after his death, collected in the Dhammapada. And one would be as much a "fool" as thinking this was Buddhism, as the Bible is Christianity. The whole real point is to find out/experience for oneself (that one is gOd/an aperture of the universe/divine), which is why Buddhism is considered an opening dialogue (of which there are many threads across millenia), a place to start the process of waking up, equally this could be psychoanalysis for a more modern approach. IMHO

So nirvana is merely a mirage then? I never claimed it was possible. I agree it is a path tread in vain.

There are many fools in the world then

For me it seems, like many religions, as just another way to escape reality or a means to contort it to your liking, IMHO.

The difference between Buddhism and religion is that Buddha himself said that if you find evidence that he was wrong you must disagree with him. The truth is more important than his teachings according to his own words.

But there is of course buddhist traditions that make people behave just like any religion, regular "buddhists" don't read the teachings just like regular christians don't read the bible.

I've heard about people who are born with it (and don't need Maybelline to feel bad about themselves). It's like a whole different level; I can hardly imagine struggling on with it. I have very deep respect for people who manage to keep going under those circumstances.

I kind of like (esoteric) Buddhism.

I'm in love with a depressed woman. ._. I haven't felt this good in a long time. I know I shouldn't put too much hope in the long term, but I'm going to foster the feelings I have now as much as possible. We've been able to talk to each other about our problems even more thoroughly then usual with companions in distress. Actually for me more than with anybody else. She seems to liven up when we're together. I'm not sure I've been showing the same appreciation to her. But hopefully I'll be able to make sure she gets the message in the coming weeks.

Does anyone here who suffers from anxiety think it's possible to be happy in anxiety ?

I'm not sure 100% what you're asking. If you mean is it possible to be happy while undergoing an episode of high anxiety, I'd say no. At least not for myself anyway. During these periods there is no emotion I can feel other than anxiety itself.

If you're asking if people with anxiety disorders can be happy, then yes definitely. I'm very happy with my life. I know that I can never be entirely rid of anxiety, but I have learnt how to manage it and how to minimize its effects on my life.

Sure. I'm almost constantly anxious. I have my moments of happiness. It tends to actually make me less anxious

Anxiety is similar to pain for me, so I'm with lennylen, you won't be able to feel anything positive while it's acute. But myself, I'm still often happy, in the times I'm out of panic mode.

I certainly can feel more than one thing at once emotionally.
Rather than being "this or that", I find myself, some of this, a lot of that, and not very much of the other.
I always found it strange that people seem to misunderstand my ability to be both happy/sad/angry/calm at the same time. I think the problems seem to come when we tell ourselves that we have to be this or that (especially the happy=good, sad=bad nonsense). I guess it is just a reflection on our juvenile society and language, that we don't allow ourselves to be many things at once.

There was something I read in a book by someone called Antony De Mello (called Awareness). He said something about wanting to be rid of anxiety (or was it tension ?) is a cause of misery and did you (the reader) ever think you could be happy anyway ?

I tried it but I don't feel normal.

I've spent the last couple years consistently trying to feel better again. And its only within the past few months that I've actually wanted and enjoyed working on my own projects again.

The anxiety is a lot easier to deal with, it completely doesn't go away... but it is easier to manage.

For the most part, so do I. But having anxiety, when you're someone with anxiety/panic disorders is a bit different from when you're a normal person feeling anxious. It can go way beyond just being an emotion.

I think you may have misinterpreted what he said. I'm pretty sure that he was talking about how being attached to things can lead to being anxious about losing them which then causes misery and that to be free of misery and tension, one must be happy with only themselves.

For a catholic priest, De Mello has a very eastern philosophy, which is probably why he was excommunicated by the pope.

When I heard a tune on a Carl Cox Hardcore set from a club called Amnesia House with a sample on it saying "We want zero repsonse", I thought it meant that when people say things to you they don't want any chatback and so I stayed quiet for months when people were talking to me.

I thought I was doing the right thing.

After a decade of madness I realised that zero response is a desirable things for a sound system to have, nothing to do with how to react when people are saying things to you.

This goes to show that I do misunderstand things, but I'm not sure despite not being able to articulate clearly when Antony meant that I've ever misunderstood anything I read that he wrote. I need to find it in the book. I've been looking today.

Who excommunicated him BTW. Wasn't John Paul II ?

Actually, it turns out his works were just denounced by the church after his death.

Makes sense. Excommunication sounds a bit unpleasant and I think John Paul 2 was the pope who would have been around when Mello was about (I think ) and John Paul didn't seem at all unpleasant to me.

At least that explains why I asked (it didn't seem likely).

Sometime I ask questions to check reality

Anyway, if I ever find what exactly it was that he said on the topic of anxiety or tension I'll let y'all know.

Will signs off (4 bottles of Stella Artois cidre in his belly

Lenny Len, I guess you didn't realise that I was diagnosed with clinical anxiety orders nearly two decades ago.

Anyway I have never met a normal person, each one seems beautifully and uniquely f**ked up to me, in ever more ways I could conceivably imagine. It seems how we cope with the "neurological chaos", that in part creates us. I just honestly feel that it is better to describe/define/divine oneself, than leave that pleasure to another.
I genuinely think/feel these aren't illnesses, but glorious examples of how magnificent you are in my eyes.
Anyway groove on everyone, and I hope you all find yourself in your own satori soon.

Just thought I mention what De Mello actually said.

He said that sometimes people think they can't be happy until they've got rid of their
neurosis but "did you ever think that you could be happy with your neurosis?"

Have you ever thought of not being in pain while being in pain?

Of course not.

What he means is - someone might say :

"I'm always worried and scared what people think of me so I can't be happy". ie I've got a neurosis so I can't be happy.

He's suggesting that despite these problems, one can be happy.

pain is for the weak

I got a friend from HS that I still see occasionally that has diagnosed bipolar. He doesn't have to work he gets pension and he stopped using it to buy dope recently so he is saving more money that's good.

I helped him set up a server but it got hacked a week later... I actually found that out accidentally coz he was complaining about somethign so I logged in as root and used htop and who and noticed someone elses stuff running that was then closed and I was like "were you running this stuff?" and he was like no and I was like no and then we're like oh ho.