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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Thread forked from here.

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video

If you care about black people at all, you watch that video.

Meanwhile, the legacy media is caught literally saying "black lives don't matter, unless they're shot by cops.":

CNN's Don Lemon scolds Terry Crews, says Black Lives Matter is about police brutality, not Black-on-Black violence

I really just... I don't care anymore. I really just don't care what your arguments are right now because you cannot, on any logical level, hand-wave away the murder of an eight year old. Which Don Lemon is literally doing on TV, and you all are doing here.

Black children don't deserve to die just because you want to talk solely about police brutality. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of black people dying being okay as long as it's the "right" kind of person murdering them. I'm sick of it. Statistically, a black youth is most likely to die at the hands of another black person over any other cause. That includes health. That includes "school shootings". That includes police. That includes literally everything. Black people don't deserve to die just because their cause of death makes you uncomfortable or challenges your worldview.

All this talk about children in cages, and when a child is literally murdered down in public view THIS WEEK, you can't even acknowledge it. I know you've all been programmed into this worldview, but it disgusts me, because what you represent is the status quo and more children, real people with real names and lives, are going to be murdered because of your reluctance to accept reality.

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I'm impressed with your reasoning.

That's because he was raised in the same ignorant bubble as you.

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I think that the American education system must do a really horrible job of teaching the concepts of socialism, communism, and Marxism. These are not horrible concepts. These are wonderful ideas.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I'm not a "patriot confederate flag hugging conservative ". I'm a liberal. I also know enough about history that no other ideology has ever killed more people than communism. Mao alone killed up to, estimates say, 100 million people. Stalin? Lenin? They threw dissonances in jail at the very start. Nobody who has actually studied history, or talked to people who lived in communist regimes thinks communism is a wonderful idea. It's only "wonderful" because you've been given the same, distorted, propaganda that Edgar has. Ask yourself why US liberals are so pro-communist while literal ex-communist states are full of people who are loudly against the idea. Russians hate communism. Ukrainians hate communism. Czech Republic citizens hate communism.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of helping people, and the idea of public funding welfare systems. But capitalism has literally helped billions of lives. And while it's fairly corrupt, it's still managed to lift billions of people out of poverty. Something a trilion dollars in CHARITY couldn't do in Africa. 5 countries in Africa are currently in the top of the fastest developing countries in the world. Remember India and China, our "sweatshop" locations? They used that money to become full of colleges and are now becoming industrial and tech sectors that have elevated themselves so far out of poverty that they don't need nor want to be sweatshop countries anymore.

But I'm not going into a 15 page analysis of capitalism vs communism. If you actually wanted to learn, there's literally thousands of videos on Youtube, and thousands of articles in reputable journals and news sites that can make the case. Hell even the !@$@!'ing Wikipedia articles would likely debunk half your ideas.

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Poverty is entirely due to systemic racism and discrimination.

So the Asians that were literally put in camps during WW2 are all still poor, right? Or how about the Jews? nope. How about literal Africans who came to America? Fun fact: They dislike-to-almost-hate black Americans. I would know, I talk to them.

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You can't just lump all activity associated with BLM with the non-profit. Individual people show up to protest (or counter-protest), and their actions are their own.

No true scottsman falasy. You don't apply that logic when white people show up to protest and there's a white supremacist that commits a crime.

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Insert: I would also question the decision to bring children to a protest in a region that is likely to encounter violence.

1) So it's THEIR fault for bringing a child to a 'peaceful' protest? Do you hear yourself? 2) They didn't even GO to a protest. They were driving down a road that had previously been cleared by police as safe. The police left, the "protesters" came back, told them to turn around and before they could even turn around, they shot their tires out and killed their child.

If the shooters were white, you all would be collapsing over yourselves to proclaim the resurgence of white supremacy. Don't lie. Don't you dare.

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This one is too long to watch right now or even go into, but as for the removal of statues of slave owners and/or Confederate leaders/symbols/flags/etc. I think that it's long overdue and makes complete sense. Removing those symbols and statues does not erase history.

I actually don't care about statues. However, I read something while reading about WW2 Nazi war bunkers. The Germans realized around the 1950's that they should never take them down. Why? They have a phrase that translates roughly to "the pain of the past should not be forgotten." We should be full of statues of slavery. Why? Because we should never allow ourselves to forget the pain and suffering our ancestors caused.

Further, if you actually knew anything about history, you'd know some of the statues they took down? Were erected by black, ex-slaves. So yeah, screw those stupid black slave people, right? Because they're white supremacist bigots, right? ...

That's the problem with the left now. They've become complete children, who can't be bothered to crack a history book, or understand a complex argument. The idea that the world can be grey is an abomination. Everything has to be grouped into "good and evil" because nobody has any time to actually think like a human being. They want to know what to hate, and who to hate, so they can hate effectively and move on to the next thing they hate.

-----sig:
β€œPrograms should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

amarillion
Member #940
January 2001
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Are you going to be able to live with that typo in the title for 4000+ posts? :P

--
Martijn van Iersel | My Blog | Sin & Cos | Tegel tilemap editor | TINS 2020

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

So, your reasoning is - black people kill black people, therefore any deaths caused by non-black people don't count as much. Nice.

What's this "you've been given the same, distorted, propaganda that Edgar has" all about?

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

Are you going to be able to live with that typo in the title for 4000+ posts? :P

I was debating "2" but felt it was two far.

Also, another liberal understanding failure: Defund The Police, fun fact: Literally means defund the police.

{"name":"Vi106ts.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/d\/0dc2701180b68dfe58771e1f48295dc5.png","w":979,"h":609,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/d\/0dc2701180b68dfe58771e1f48295dc5"}Vi106ts.png

So, your reasoning is - black people kill black people, therefore any deaths caused by non-black people don't count as much. Nice.

Must be really easy to win arguments when you make them up.

You don't care when blacks die, you don't riot, you don't post, you don't tweet, you don't send "positive vibes" as long as black people are the ones holding the guns. You cared about "children in cages" but you didn't do a single thing for all the black kids who died the same year. That's because all you see is tribes. "Whites" are the bad, "blacks" are the good. And the idea that any problem could be more complex or subtle than that is alien to you. So you simply ignore all the black people who die every day because acknowledging their death would mean acknowledging your worldview is too simplistic.

And I, for one, I'm not going to accept black people needlessly dying, just because the color of someone's skin is the "right color" to do the murdering. Police are only one aspect of a huge problem for the black community. Black Lives Matter always. Every day. Not just when CNN tells you to care.

-----sig:
β€œPrograms should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

You're making an ass out of yourself by ASSuming I don't care about any lives taken by anyone other than police.

And no, defund the police doesn't mean abolish the police.

Stop listening to all your right wing garbage news sources already.

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
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The other thread ran out???

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piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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Guys dont be fooled by black lives matter, it is not a true black movement. its a Trojan movement.

wow
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i am who you are not am i

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

The problem is almost all black people who are killed were killed by black people. The cops have very little to do with the homicides apart from using lethal force against criminals, and almost all of it is justifiable homicide. Truth hurts.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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raynebc - so murdering children by cop is justifiable homicide? So George Floyd was justifiable homicide? So Breonna Taylor was justifiable homicide?

You're a racist pig.

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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there is no such think as justifiable homicide just unfortunate homicide. even killing wild animals in the wild is not justifiable homicide.

there is a hidden history of humanity that regular humans are blind too. once you find that history you will understand why things are the way they are now and how to correct them. however in order to gain access to that history you need to become more enlighten within Nature and nature will show you that history. you human are trapped in a cycle and the only way out is enlightenment aka becoming conscious of everything in the cycle and liberating your body mind and soul from the cycle using logically process you learn from becoming conscious of everything

wow
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i am who you are not am i

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Why do we care about white officers killing black people? Because it's a known problem that can be identified and solved with specific changes.

Do we care about black people killing black people? Yes! But the problem is different. The solution is different. Maybe it's a bigger problem - but that is irrelevant. Do we not seek a cure for a small disease until we have found a cure for cancer?

Saying "All Lives Matter" in response to "Black Lives Matter" is, again, nonsensical. Yes, all lives matter. But if somebody says to me "we need to save the Amazon rain forest" I don't get all offended and respond with "No, we need to save ALL rain forests. All Trees Matter." Seeking out to save the Amazon rain forest comes with specific set of issues that require a specific set of solutions.

It's the same thing here. And maybe there is a bit of an overreaction to the movement, but that tends to happen when there has been decades of injustice swept under the rug.

And fear mongering about the true intent of certain people within the BLM movement is also not really productive. Most moderate social changes come from people with extreme points of view. Even a crazy/socialist/commie/capitalistic person can have a good idea. Our own president is a card carrying member of the kkk, but that doesn't prevent him from having valid points on rare occasions.

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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yes your logic is spot on Matthew. however its all by design it was name BLM so that people will say ALM similar tactic as selling guns to both side in the war.
BLM was made and pitched to black community strategically after constantly having the real black movements crushed and swept under the run the blacks became sheep looking for anything to grab onto that they could relate too. this BLM movement i just like the women rights movement both hijacked by satanist that seek to keep the world in conflict and confusion so that it attracts the reset of earth serpent of Chaos resets the earth in 2029. after than humans go to the back of the line and life from the Bird animal Kingdom gets their chance to becomes Sentient and elevate their consciousness and bodies as we and the reptiles before us have have

wow
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i am who you are not am i

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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The thread fork wasn't really necessary. If you cite your quotes then the Web application won't do any work to guess. That said, Matthew, couldn't that work be done by a service or separate thread in phases instead of locking up the user?

Restoring some unanswered quotes from the other thread.

raynebc said:

That has to be the king of anti personal-responsibility posts. Handouts aren't going to be enough to change generations of bad Democrat policy and bad lifestyle choices. The left (politicians, media, educators, etc.) should stop brainwashing black people at large into believing lies like them not having a "valid shot at life" as you say.

As usual, your ill-informed opinions about COVID response and second amendment aren't particularly useful to anybody. And your side's brand of iconoclasm isn't something that should be defended, especially when rabid protesters tear down statues of black people, slavery abolitionists, founding fathers of the freest country in the world, etc. A rational person should be able to stop pretending to be the arbiter of fairness when pushing repeatedly failed ideologies like Socialism.

Poppycock.

raynebc, if you think the system is fair, you're part of why it's broken.

People don't want handouts, they want a fair chance to succeed. They don't have that. You're so blinded by your own ideology, you disregard anything anyone on the left has to say.

:D

I'm an example of the 'system working': receiving SSDI + Medicare due to severe mental illness, and thanks to SSDI + Medicare + other welfare able to get better until the point this year I'll have paid more in taxes than I received in benefits (my current job and my new job pay very well).

The kicker is I was extremely lucky. Wasn't denied, didn't have to appeal for SSDI. Was able to receive excellent healthcare after a long wait. (But I thought long waits were only a thing for socialist countries? Hmm.)

But if Republicans had their way, I'd probably be dead or in jail for homelessness. ??? I would've never received SSDI or Medicare and my mental illness would've been untreated and that would've been the end for me.

But if you really want your asses kicked respond to this one directly.

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
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@piccolo :
What do you mean by nature? Wild nature or human nature?
The story is achieved on VHS?

@Matthew Leverton :
"All Lives Matter" It makes sense, since there are people who do not understand what they are talking about, but when we are supposedly in an era where tolerance is practiced and discrimination has already been eliminated, then when people talk about "Black Lives Matter" it is as if you want to resuscitate discrimination or create problems where there is none. That is until it is shown that there is discrimination and that tolerance from the beginning was a lie.

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Rm Beer for President 2020!

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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@RmBeer2: Wild nature and human nature are the same thing. the other animals are the same as us they are just at a lower level of consciousness and body development.
you need to understand Nature as our Mother when we eat the other animals even our selves as we used too, it is the equivalent to being breast feed by Mother Nature. the mechanize that interfaces us with Nature's Breast Milk is our ID Brains aka the(Devil) as we develop we slowly build consciousness developing higher brain functions and greater understandings that begin to over ride the control the ID Brain keeping its primitive impulses in check.

one of the first things that happens is we stop eating one another than we stop eating the other animals. this is because we get smarter and figure out that what we need to eat is not the other animals but instead it is what the other animals are eating

The story is achieved In nature and is currently being played out over and over but on a different scale(realm)

ill stop right there because this is already lased with information that has been and should be hidden from humans that are still slaves to their ID Brains.

wow
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i am who you are not am i

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
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@piccolo :
So we are less intelligent because mother nature feeds us with animals?
I do not agree that we should eat what other animals eat, not only does it mean breaking the food chain, but we are not prepared to eat other types of food such as grass or leaves, which are what other animals are eating, the Most are usually vegan. Also keep in mind that there are plant lives, like vegetables, they do not contribute to our intelligence? Or are they just snacks that do not affect in any way when we eat them?
When you speak of kingdoms, you are speaking of scales of vibrations, which on a different level would cease to be in the physical world as we know it.
Human nature and wild nature are not the same, one corresponds to the behavior of humans specifically (but from the human point of view), and the other corresponds to the world of nature.
By stopping eating animals and getting smarter, you may mean the fasting related to meditation, which personally I have not met anyone who has achieved it ... I do not believe that fasting is necessary to achieve intelligence and a high level of consciousness, rather it is just one of the many requirements necessary to eliminate all kinds of distractions during meditation.

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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Sure, it's unfortunate that there are incidents where police must use force. There are reasons why force may be necessary, and those are what people call justified use of force. Homicides can also be justified. Police abuse of citizens is a problem, but it has not been shown to be systemically racist. Outlier examples are not proper justification to drive policy.

And yes, to address Edgar's dumb strawman, if a child is shooting people up, police would be justified in stopping the kid with lethal force. Take note, idiot, that the words "most" and "all" mean different things.

And Matthew, stop being a dumbass with your Trump derangement. If you want to see KKK in the US government, you're going to be looking at the DNC.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Guess what raynebc, the police murdered a kid for a toy gun. There is another example where it was a bag of potato chips. I'd like to justify your homicide, but I actually have a conscience, unlike you and your dirt bag racist cops.

Breonna Taylor was sleeping, and the cops fired 20 rounds at her. They broke into her apartment on a bad warrant, no knock, no warning, just murdered her. Fuck you and all your racist pig friends.

jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

I'm really curious why you guys continue to converse when you both clearly have completely different and opposing world views.

There's no real exchange of ideas here, it's just like a little endian and big endian machine trying to connect and it's just a garbled mess.... ???

Like, I don't believe in God, but that in no way means God isn't real, it in no way means Edgar's beliefs are invalid in any way, etc. That's just how my brain and experiences have been wired such that I never seeked a higher power, but just because I never seeked it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or might eventually come into my life. This might even be God's plan for me, who knows.

And politics, oh lawd....

This has so much to do with your upbringing, income, social status, personality type, etc

I've grown up in Canada and socialism / free health care allowed my poor grandmother to get cancer removed for free when she otherwise would have died or been in debt for the rest of her life. Of course my experiences shape my world views.

That doesn't mean I hate all Trump supporters. They are, for the most part, good people who just want the best for their country, and based on their personality and experiences, they relate well to trump and his policies. I do not, but I don't discredit anyone who does, and I think if both sides listened, really listened to what the other had to say, we'd find we're not so different..

This is how racism happens anyways, we fear what we do not understand. Fear breeds hate and bigotry, intolerance, etc.

Murder of any kind is unjustifiable, but I'd love to take brain scans of these murderers, I'm sure they have abnormal brain activity patterns that could be treated with either medication / therapy.

I'm sure a lot of these officers might have trauma from an early age, or other disorders, perhaps PTSD.... we don't ever look at that do we ? Someone that murders is ill, but we should try to diagnose and heal them...

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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raynebc is just an ideological believer in Conservative politics. He's a useful idiot, and nothing more. There's no reasoning with him. His mind is shut. He ignores all facts, and makes wild claims without evidence or reason to back his ideas. I just roll my eyes and pass over him most of the time, like a lunatic screaming nonsense in the street. He'll never admit that he was wrong, no matter how egregious Trump's actions are. Republicans that still support Trump have to be brainwashed to be this stupid. Citing Fox News is your first clue. If you can stand watching Fox News for more than 30 seconds without cringing or being visibly upset then something is wrong with the reasoning centers of your brain, and you should seek professional help ASAP.

Odds are his friends and family are also Republicans, and he's surrounded by other idiots, and unable to see beyond the bubble of bullshit. It's really not his fault, you see. People come in all varieties. Humans are just animals. Our brains are easily fooled. If you aren't skeptical by nature then you'll easily buy a bridge.

Of course, there's no need to convince him that he's wrong. The threads will remain long after he's gone to remind us all how wrong he was. And there's a chance that some other people, that are on the fence still or may be susceptible to the tactics of misinformation propaganda, may find sense in the discussion and be saved from the brainwashing before it's too late... There are many lurkers we never know about.

Funny little anecdote: I've been following an ex-police officer on Twitter.

Paul Manning

As I understand it, he went undercover right out of training, and ended up discovering that a LOT of cops around him were corrupt and entangled in organized crime. He filed a report, and started getting threats from other cops to mind his business or else. Then his undercover identity was leaked to a crime family, and a hit was put out on him. His family was present at the time, but the hit failed. He has since suffered PTSD and various mental health issues, occasionally battling with depression and thoughts of suicide. His family left him fearing for their lives. The police turned their backs on him for "ratting". Senior management fired him, and covered up the evidence that he provided. A recent tweet claimed that he also discovered that many police officers are on [illegal] steroids, and are dealing them and other drugs as well. That was similarly covered up.

This is in Ontario, Canada. We're a lot more polite and friendly up here so if that's what our police are like I can only imagine how bad the police in the US are. He basically said that he regrets "doing the right thing" by filing the reports and doing his job instead of ignoring it and protecting the other police. It has basically ruined his life. He's not alone. There are a few other ex-police officers on Twitter that I've encountered with similar stories of doing the "lawful, honest thing" and being fired and threatened as a result.

It takes a certain type of person to be a police officer. It's dangerous so you need to be confident and strong, or at least make up for it with ego. From my experience it attracts mostly bullies and assholes, but there are the rare decent people that just want to help people and uphold the law (these guys are the minority, and when their work conflicts with corruption they get killed or suppressed). Police should be held to the highest standard of ethics, but in reality there are no standards at all. It's completely sickening.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

jmasterx said:

I'm really curious why you guys continue to converse when you both clearly have completely different and opposing world views.

In America, the majority of people have one of two polar opposite views. And it's essentially Group A vs Group B in all topics. Except for anti-vaxxers which come from both groups. :-/

raynebc said:

Outlier examples are not proper justification to drive policy.

I think where we would disagree is what you call an outlier, I call systematic.

A few weeks ago, I saw a compilation of literally 100 videos (unedited in that they individually are a contiguous segment) taken by bystanders over the course of a single weekend of BLM protests that depict excessive use of violence by police. Sucker punching kids. Purposefully spraying non-violent children in the face with some form of pepper spray. Running over people with their cars. Running over to people who are walking away to beat them with a club in their backs. Knocking down a 70 year old man, cracking his head open, and then 50 cops walk over/around him, letting someone else deal with his near-death experience, etc. National guard flying helicopters so low that street signs are ripped out of the ground, flinging debris to anybody indiscriminately. We have cops accidentally recording themselves on duty openly fantasizing over killing black men (later just saying they were under a lot of stress ::)). In a nearby city here, cops killed a person with a chokehold (before the BLM boom), then later went back to his memorial to snap a photo with each other with one of them performing a chokehold. The cop who killed the man responded "haha" to the photo.

It must get exhausting to try to excuse each of these one by one, over and over again, only labeling the most extreme as an outlier.

This is what I mean by it's systemic: Not that the majority of police officers are bad (they aren't), but that probably every police force with more than ten cops has bad people on staff that operate under almost complete impunity with support by internal unions and external legal precedent.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-judges-deals/

I'm mobile right now, but felt this was worth sharing too. It should speak for itself to anybody reasonable.

Append:

Also: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/06/03/457251670/how-much-do-we-need-the-police

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Edgar: The kid removed the orange tip that is required to be there to identify to everybody that it's a toy. The kid was playing with it recklessly and somebody called the cops about a kid playing with a gun. The kid didn't drop the gun when the police demanded it. Despite what you may think, people do bear responsibility for their actions. F*** you and your broken grasp of morality.

The cops who killed Breonna should be put on trial with a push for them to be executed. Nobody here is defending those cops. However political activists like those in BLM will equate Breonna's situation with that of Rayshard Brooks (who did deserve to be met with deadly force). These cases are extremely rare outliers, which as I've said aren't proper metrics for judging police country-wide.

Bam: You pretend not to be a rabid leftist, but you're about as bad as anybody on this forum. My mind is closed to disproven idiocies that the Democrats manufacture and parrot ad nauseam. If you were less hostile and more honest I'd be willing to discuss things with you civilly again.

Matthew: A handful of cases that are statistically drowned out with dislike outcomes are not systematic. There are bad cops, but many bad civilians. Even when you cite things like knocking down the old man, you do it with spin even though when I watch the footage, the man was getting up in the cop's face and blocking one of a group of police that needed to keep moving. A shove of moderate force to an old man becomes just another contextless story of police violence. The cop immediately radioed for a medic and the police kept moving. A handful of outliers is just that. If you want to eliminate the immunities afforded by public sector unions (ie. cops, teachers) that protect bad actors, we are already in agreement. As I've made 100% clear, it's my stance that individuals are responsible for their actions and that group responsibility is mostly a left-wing value.

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
avatar

"Like, I don't believe in God, but that in no way means God isn't real," "Someone that murders is ill"

whaaat???... You got excited...

EDIT ===========================

In fact, everyone should relax. They are getting out of hand with so many insults.

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jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

RmBeer2 said:

In fact, everyone should relax. They are getting out of hand with so many insults.

I'm not trying to insult anyone.

To put it another way, I've never seen gamma rays, I can't see that spectrum, but it does not mean it does not exist.

What I mean't is, I don't pray, or follow any kind of higher power, I have never had a religious experience, there was no religion in my upbringing, I do not feel the need to follow any sort of higher power. It's sort of like, people around me describe light, but I am blind. Having never seen light I cannot prove or disprove that light exists, but personally I do not experience light.

That's all I'm saying.

And yes, I do think someone that murders another human being is ill in some way. In some cases, the person being murdered may be the cause of that illness but it doesn't take away that I'm pretty sure the vast majority of murderers have abnormal brain activity patterns. That's my belief, I'm open to be proven wrong, of course.

People don't tend to take me very seriously on this forum, so meh, why do I even still come here? I have a right to make points as much as anyone else here...

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