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OS update
Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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bamccaig said:

I should probably blog about the Tetris clone I was working on.

I'd be interested in reading about that. :)

Quote:

It's just a little embarrassing how bad I am at game dev.

You don't have to be particularly good, you just have to come up with a neat gimmick or idea. Just make-up something crazy. It doesn't even have to make sense. I'll give it a go: make a game about baby chickens who who have accidentally consumed explosive ball bearings. They are too stuffed to move, so you must use a large magnet to move them back into their pen. However, if a chick touches another chick, it'll explode, so you have to be careful! Call it "Chick Magnet". :P

Neil Roy said:

as you make lines, it reveals a little bit of a picture in the background

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Just curious, where'd you get the picture of the woman for the background?

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Just curious, where'd you get the picture of the woman for the background?

I don't recall now. I have a variety of images I grabbed online at the time. I probably should have been more concerned with copyrights, but this was from 2004 and I haven't done anything with it since.

I thought about reviving the project and completing it with my own 3D rendered images and photographs just for fun.

I have actually played it again recently and I honestly get addicted to playing it, even though it is my own game, so it is a fun one. I figure if I like my own game, that it is probably worth reviving and redoing from scratch.

I also have one I want to redo that I don't have posted on there called "Deluxe Artillery Duel" (the first game I made in C, and my first "Deluxe" game). Based on the Atari2600 Artillery Duel and several other similar games in that era. The last version I made of it was for DOS though, written using I think, Allegro 3 and possibly Allegro 4 when it first came out and compiled with DJGPP. Now that was a fun game as it was the first time I created all my own graphics and sound effects and the first real game I made with Allegro and C. Lots of firsts. Before that, I came up with the concept for this game in QuickBasic, still have the source for that too! :)

Here's a screenshot, in the original resolution and using some of the Allegro's spline examples for the landscape...

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---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I'd be interested in reading about that. :)

I will try to find time to start posting about it tonight.

You don't have to be particularly good, you just have to come up with a neat gimmick or idea.

You're referring to game design. I.e., coming up with a game idea that would be fun. That I may not be terrible at, but it looks like you're much better at it. :D As with a lot of other people, my ideas are too complex for my development skills. Of course, the real problem is that my game development skills are nil. I don't really comprehend basic collision detection and resolution properly, let alone more fancy concepts. I was naturally good at math in high school, but I only had a basic math class in college and haven't been practicing maths for over a decade now so I've pretty much lost all of it. I struggle to remember parts of the 12x12 times table! In theory I should be able to learn the basic, even if I just have to copy-paste the logic, but I usually don't get that far either because I'm also useless at art and sound, and struggle to turn the idea in my head into code and pixels on the screen...

Just make-up something crazy. It doesn't even have to make sense. I'll give it a go: make a game about baby chickens who who have accidentally consumed explosive ball bearings. They are too stuffed to move, so you must use a large magnet to move them back into their pen. However, if a chick touches another chick, it'll explode, so you have to be careful! Call it "Chick Magnet". :P

That is literally a brilliant game idea. Did you seriously just think of that?

1. Develop it into a mobile game.
2. Upload it to the mobile game stores with ads (or a $3 in-game purchase item to remove them).
3. ???
4. Profit.

Just curious, where'd you get the picture of the woman for the background?

That's his wife. :-X

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Quote:

That's his wife. :-X

LMAO, nope. I done some searching in my old backups and I found the original. That is Jeanette Rundgren...

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THIS is my wife... (she loves snakes)

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You can also see a picture of her when you point at that... file thingee at the top of each of my messages that normally is supposed to show a picture of me. ;)

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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Neil Roy said:

I also have one I want to redo that I don't have posted on there called "Deluxe Artillery Duel" (the first game I made in C, and my first "Deluxe" game).

How many "Deluxe" games do you have, and why did you decide on "Deluxe"?

bamccaig said:

I will try to find time to start posting about it tonight.

Good luck! :)

Quote:

As with a lot of other people, my ideas are too complex for my development skills. Of course, the real problem is that my game development skills are nil.

As far as ideas go, you should try narrowing your scope. Think of a simple game or concept and try to create it from scratch. Games don't have to be massive, multi-year-long endeavors; they can be super simple, super short, made-in-an-afternoon mini-endeavors instead. :) Start literally anywhere, but take small steps as you do so.

Here's an idea to get started: make a game where the player can move a rectangle around the screen. Once you have that, add an objective: collide with smaller rectangles. Maybe have the small rectangle re-appear in a random place on-screen after the player collides with it. Maybe then you could add some text that represents points, and it goes up each time you collect a small rectangle. Maybe then you could add sound effects to go along with it. One step at a time, you know? Practice makes perfect. :)

Once you've finished a game--big or small--release it! Even if it's super simple, you can feel proud knowing you actually released a game--a feat many never accomplish! I encourage you to give it a shot.

Quote:

That's his wife. :-X

I thought it might be at first. You never know.

Neil Roy said:

THIS is my wife... (she loves snakes)

That's pretty surprising, as I've never encountered a woman who likes snakes. Granted, many (most?) people of both sexes have a fear or disliking of snakes, but it seems to be more true for girls than boys.

bamccaig said:

That is literally a brilliant game idea. Did you seriously just think of that?

Yeah, I just thought of it. Thinking up an idea is the easy part; the execution is what really counts. ;) I might make it into an actual game sometime, but we'll see.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Here's an idea to get started: make a game where the player can move a rectangle around the screen. Once you have that, add an objective: collide with smaller rectangles. Maybe have the small rectangle re-appear in a random place on-screen after the player collides with it. Maybe then you could add some text that represents points, and it goes up each time you collect a small rectangle. Maybe then you could add sound effects to go along with it. One step at a time, you know? Practice makes perfect. :)

You are literally a game design god. That or you're ripping off existing ideas that I don't know about. :D>:(

Also your advice is sound. That's sort of what I set out to do with my Tetris clone. I was aiming quite small, and I was making good progress with it until I ran into a collision bug, and then I discovered memory leaks, and I couldn't figure out the memory leaks. I didn't want to keep going and make the leaks worse until I figured out the leaks so development stalled and hasn't really been touched in 2 months. >:(

It's now been so long I barely remember the original issues that lead me to the memory leaks, but here's one of the progress videos I posted (I can't remember if I posted these on A.cc already, but I think I did on one of the planned speedhack threads back in December or January):

video

That particular issue appears to be fixed, but the memory leaking is the main issue I have to contend with now. Another issue is input lag. I currently have the game coded to use hjkl as arrow keys because I'm a vi fanboy, but I don't think that should account for the lag. I must have issues with my game loop to cause it. In any case, one bug at a time...

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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bamccaig said:

You are literally a game design god. That or you're ripping off existing ideas that I don't know about. :D>:(

I don't think it's necessarily an original idea, but I wouldn't say it's a rip-off either. It's just a rough concept of a rough game. Plenty of games are comprised of the basics I talked about. The point is that creating and releasing that sort of game would teach you all the necessary basics; you'd learn how to: create a display, create a game loop, poll for user input, render things on the screen, do collision detection, use random numbers, draw text, play sounds, and build and release a game. Once you've done that, you can add more polish. Maybe instead of rectangles, you could play as a dog collecting bones. You could use actual images, and then maybe do an animation cycle. The sky is the limit.

Quote:

That particular issue appears to be fixed, but the memory leaking is the main issue I have to contend with now. Another issue is input lag.

Have you looked into using any programs to identify memory leaks? I've personally never used one, but I've heard of their existence. I can't say if such programs are any good though. :-/ As for the lag, it's just input lag, not rendering lag (dropped/skipped frames)?

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I don't think it's necessarily an original idea, but I wouldn't say it's a rip-off either. It's just a rough concept of a rough game. Plenty of games are comprised of the basics I talked about. The point is that creating and releasing that sort of game would teach you all the necessary basics; you'd learn how to: create a display, create a game loop, poll for user input, render things on the screen, do collision detection, use random numbers, draw text, play sounds, and build and release a game. Once you've done that, you can add more polish. Maybe instead of rectangles, you could play as a dog collecting bones. You could use actual images, and then maybe do an animation cycle. The sky is the limit.

I've done many of these things before. The only things in that list that I haven't accomplished properly is collision detection and sound (and literally releasing a game, though I manage releases for my company's software so the logistics I know, just not the actually developing a game to release :P).

My Tetris clone has collision detection, but it's probably not "ideal", and I resorted to a tile-based design to keep it simple. The idea was start simple and eventually make it more complicated. Once I had the tile-based game working properly converting it to pixel-based was going to be one of the future goals. I also managed to fix a bug in the collision detection for "Intern's Quest" many years ago (which was a project I undertook with Sam H. for a university course), but Sam gets the credit for actually implementing the collision detection. I wouldn't say I understood it per se.

As for sound, see the audio thread. :) I attempted it a few months ago too, but I couldn't figure it out. I might have figured out how to get some sounds played, but not played as freely as I wanted. My ultimate goal at the time was actually generating sounds computationally, but I wasn't able to figure out how.

I started on a couple of simple libraries for doing animations in Allegro 4 (al4anim; a simple solution I developed in response to a thread years ago) and Allegro 5 (libal5poly, which was developed as part of my incomplete Santa Hack entry a few years back). The latter of which I intended to expand into a high-level game library or engine, but naturally lack the experience or expertise to develop such a thing.

I've also been a career programmer/analyst for ~11 years so business software I'm quite familiar with. It's mostly the parts of game programming that require math or domain knowledge where I get stuck.

Quote:

Have you looked into using any programs to identify memory leaks? I've personally never used one, but I've heard of their existence. I can't say if such programs are any good though. :-/

I am using valgrind (which is why I know there are leaks at all), but my valgrind fu is not very strong apparently. It looks like some of the memory is leaked by the video drivers or Allegro, but I'm not sure. With a bit of poor man's debugging I think I've identified at least two game objects that are also leaking somehow that I need to figure out. This debugging will likely end up being my first blog post if I can find the strength. :)

Quote:

As for the lag, it's just input lag, not rendering lag (dropped/skipped frames)?

I haven't actually attempted to diagnose the issue yet since I have more serious bugs to worry about first. It could be something else entirely. The game itself seems to run pretty smoothly, but input is pretty choppy. Eventually I think I'll end up putting the repo up either my Web site or GitHub so others will be able to see what I'm doing wrong if I can't.. I prefer to do so on my own Web site so it's a bit more private since it's not really something I'm proud of [yet] nor ready to broadcast. Having a mechanism to share the code though is desirable. Basically I'm thinking of an "unlisted" repo where anybody can access it, but if you simple navigate to my site or profile you won't see it unless you navigate directly to the link. I also haven't applied licensing to it yet (but it'll most likely fall under GPLv2+ or v3+).

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

How many "Deluxe" games do you have, and why did you decide on "Deluxe"?

I think I originally got that from Deluxe Pacman for the Amiga by the late Edgar Vigdal. My wife and I loved that game on the Amiga and we missed it a lot, so I recreated it originally just for her (with Edgar's permission actually).

Of course, when trying to come up with a name for an Artillery Duel game, I was lacking imagination so I figured if you can slap Deluxe on Pacman, I can do it on that! LMAO, ah well. I have used it again, but I used it again just for laughs, I made a "Deluxe Pong" game (I named it Deluxe as a joke) which was just an excersize it writing a C++ game as I normally code purely in C, and still prefer it. And I probably have a few others due to my poor naming imagination. ;) I did name a Tetris style game BLOC! So that was unique at least (BLOC, no "K" on it as that is the French spelling I think). I think I avoided "Tetris" in a name because the "tris" part I believe has a trademark on it where you can't use "tris" in any game that is like that.

Quote:

That's pretty surprising, as I've never encountered a woman who likes snakes.

Wanda (my wife) loves pretty much all animals. What makes her scream actually is ants, but that comes from a childhood trauma with them. I taught her how to safely catch and pick up snakes and she has always been fascinated with them. That photo was on our front lawn with my neice's Ball Python, when she learned she was outside with it, she rushed out and plopped down on the lawn with it, she was tickled as you can see in the photo. One time my niece's snake got loose in our apartment building and I managed to find it and my wife couldn't get enough of it. She's a real animal lover. I have another photo with her when we caught my niece's escaped snake, it was a corn snake, you can see how she loves them in it too.

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---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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bamccaig said:

The only things in that list that I haven't accomplished properly is collision detection and sound

Collision detection isn't difficult once you understand the math behind it. It's just determining whether two objects overlap. Usually that's represented by some shape, like a rectangle (bounding box collision) or a circle (circle-based or distance-based collision). Of course, there's more than just rectangles and circles, but you can solve the majority of collision problems using just those two shapes. I encourage you to look online for code examples of collision detection, and maybe spruce up on algebra or the likes if you need a refresher.

As for sound, that's specific to your library of choice (whereas math is library and language agnostic). A one-size-fits-all audio solution can be tough. Make it really simple to use and people will complain that it's too restrictive. Alternatively, make it too "loose" where it can be applied to almost any problem, and people will complain that it's too convoluted to use. :P The docs and the forum are your only hope in this regard.

Quote:

It's mostly the parts of game programming that require math or domain knowledge where I get stuck.

There is certainly a lot of math that goes into making a game. But you can do a lot with a surprisingly small amount of math knowledge. Besides, you don't need to have the best math skills to make a fun game. Take "Flappy Bird" for example. That game was insanely popular a year or so ago (maybe longer now), yet it was stupidly simple! The whole game was just a twist on the endless runner genre. But instead of running, you had to tap the screen to have a bird flap its wings. The main game-play gimmick was avoiding obstacles as you bob up and down while flapping. You could probably recreate that experience with minimal math skills. For collision detection, just use axis-aligned bounding boxes (AABB collision). All you need to do for AABB collision is check the sides of a pair of rectangles for an overlap. The rest of the game is just spawning obstacles off-screen, and then moving them into view. Oh and detecting user input to make the bird flap, but that's simple, too. So even with basic math skills, it is possible to create fun, and sometimes addicting, games.

Here is a demo of the rectangle game I suggested (sans sounds). Move with the arrow keys (you might have to click on the game area for the frame to accept your key presses). As an optional exercise, think of some ways to improve the demo. What would make it more enjoyable to play? What are some ways existing features could be polished? How might you build upon it?

Quote:

Eventually I think I'll end up putting the repo up either my Web site or GitHub so others will be able to see what I'm doing wrong if I can't..

I'd prefer GitHub, but I can understand wanting to keep it private. I'd be interested in checking it out if you decide to make the repo available. :)

Neil Roy said:

I think I originally got that from Deluxe Pacman for the Amiga by the late Edgar Vigdal. My wife and I loved that game on the Amiga and we missed it a lot, so I recreated it originally just for her (with Edgar's permission actually).

Wow, how neat that your passion project received a blessing from Edgar, and that it became popular enough to warrant a successor! Any plans for a Deluxe Pacman 3?

Quote:

That photo was on our front lawn with my neice's Ball Python, when she learned she was outside with it, she rushed out and plopped down on the lawn with it, she was tickled as you can see in the photo.

How cool! I've heard good things about Ball Pythons, but have not had the chance to be around one. :o I used to catch a lot of snakes as a kid, but my interest in them waned in my teen years (I guess the novelty just wore off). I remember my neighbor being deathly afraid of them. I remember her calling me over a few times to remove snakes from her yard. They were totally harmless and tiny garter/garden snakes, but she wanted nothing to do with them. :P

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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*shudders* Steve Irwin taught me how cool snakes are, but they still give me the willies up close. :P I love to watch them on YouTube and don't mind seeing them through glass or in the arms of a trained professional, but I'll squeal like a girl if I see one in the wild (and up here all we practically have are non-venomous, tiny little rodent hunting snakes). I've only ever seen a wild snake maybe a handful of times, most of them as a child, and they still creep me out to this day (but I'll watch from a distance, assuming I have no reason to actually fear them).

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Yeah, I used to go to a graveyard as a teen in the '70s and catch garter snakes. One time we captured about 27 of them and brought them back to this housing units we were living int and let them all loose. ;D Good times.

Any plans for a Deluxe Pacman 3?

I have been toying with the idea. My game, mainly DP1 has been downloaded literally millions of times (I am not exaggerating), mainly in South America, so I would love to add in language support for them too. I have a project I barely got started that was called Deluxe Pacman 3, but then I renamed it to...

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---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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That's a nice-looking image. You should consider making it for the Web. ;) Having it be playable in a browser could make it more accessible to a wider audience. You could still ask for donations, but you could also put it on itch.io with an optional download that pops up with a donation.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It does seem like Neil would benefit from developing a Web-based DP game (though I can't be sure what affect that would have on donations). While developing a Web site I think would be a waste of your time, developing a DP game in JavaScript/HTML5 might be well worth your time. It could expand your mind, give you a new challenge and something fun to try, and ultimately result in a game that is accessible to most of the world (with sufficiently fast computers).

Append:

And a secondary objective could be making it mobile-friendly (but not until you have a desktop version polished!). :)

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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How often do you guys get a new laptop?

I've had my laptop for a little more than five years now. It's been my go-to computer for work, school, and play. I do just about everything on it. Over the past six months or so, the hardware has begun to really show its age. The keyboard needs to be replaced (the caps to the escape, print screen, W, and Q keys broke off, and each sometimes has to be hit repeatedly to register an input), the screen doesn't go up to 100% brightness (hasn't for a year or so now), the battery lasts maybe 20 minutes on a charge, the hard drive is in a "pre-fail"/"old age" state according to a SMART test and sometimes boots with read errors, and the whole system frequently locks up when switching between programs.

It's a Lenovo IdeaPad P400 Touch. It originally shipped with Windows 8, but I've exclusively been running various Linux distros on it for the majority of my time with it. I can replace the keyboard, hard drive, and battery. I could even replace the screen, but don't want to hassle with that. The frequent freezes might be CPU-related, which I can't replace. I'd like to believe I could get another year or so out of it, but I think I've used it nearly to death.

Even with the potential to fix most of its problems, I'm thinking it's just time to upgrade instead. The only question is what should I upgrade to? I'd prefer to buy a laptop without an OS on it, because I don't want to pay for Windows. OS-less laptops are hard to come by though, and are usually expensive... I might just end up buying a decent year or so old used laptop if I can get one for cheap.

What do you think?

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I've never gotten a laptop of any vintage. :P Desktops are cheaper, easier to upgrade, and you can't pwnt PC n00bs from the couch. >:(

My desktop is probably close to 7 years old, and it shows. I'm definitely in need of upgrading the GPU and increasing memory, but it seems my motherboard doesn't support the latest GPU interfaces so unfortunately I can't just upgrade one or two things and pretty much will end up replacing everything except for maybe the case, power supply, and hard drive. :-/

I can't afford to do that so for now I deal with it. >:( Fortunately, the main game that I enjoy playing mostly runs smoothly on this hardware still so it's not so bad.

Mind you, I really need to reformat the system and reinstall the OS because this one has several frustrating issues that I don't think I can solve. >:(

Append:

Here's the Tetris-clone repo: Tetrist on Github. I haven't had time to blog about it yet. :( But perhaps somebody will get curious and solve the memory leaks for me. :-* The memory-leaks branch is sort of the latest state, but develop is also more up-to-date than master.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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Quote:

I've never gotten a laptop of any vintage. :P Desktops are cheaper, easier to upgrade, and you can't pwnt PC n00bs from the couch. >:(

Never had a laptop? That's impressive! I really only need my laptop for work. Everything else I can do on a desktop. I might dual-boot Linux on my gaming desktop and use that for everything (other than PC gaming). Then for work I could use one of the other laptops I have. I have like 6 in my room. :o Whenever my mom or sister gets a new laptop, instead of throwing the old one away, I gladly take it off their hands. I haven't really used any of them yet, but I could clean one of them up and use it as a work laptop.

bamccaig said:

Here's the Tetris-clone repo: Tetrist on Github [github.com]. I haven't had time to blog about it yet. :( But perhaps somebody will get curious and solve the memory leaks for me. :-* The memory-leaks branch is sort of the latest state, but develop is also more up-to-date than master.

Thanks for sharing it! I'll look through the code later today.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I'm in the same boat as bamccaig. Never owned a laptop, always used a desktop built by myself.

My desktop is probably as old as bam's as well. A 3 core AMD CPU with a GTX650 GPU and 12G of RAM.

When I originally built it, I done some research from sites like Tom's Hardware on getting the best bang for the buck, with a motherboard that allowed easy overclocking if needed etc. The research was worthwhile as the system has lasted a long time now. Probably since 2010 or so, I forget now. I originally had a GTX240 and I think 4G RAM in it and later upgraded the RAM and GPU.

I want to upgrade it again, but the GPU won't change this time as they are insanely high priced. The GTX650 cost me $100 a few years ago and is now more than double that, which is crazy, so an upgrade for that isn't in the cards for me.

I wouldn't mind grabbing a laptop for my wife though and may look into one someday for her, but not for me. I'm a desktop man all the way. I could never get used to more compact keyboards, I wouldn't be able to type fast at all with them.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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There is certainly a lot of math that goes into making a game. But you can do a lot with a surprisingly small amount of math knowledge.

Seems like all you need for 2-D games is... the most basic trig. You rarely need integrals or derivatives, though understanding them can help things like physics and networking.

I definitely feel like I understand games more with years of math classes on my belt. But perhaps it was just being forced to do math by hand on a regular basis that gave me confidence or filled in the holes in my knowledge.

3-D games, however, yeah, you're going to need a LOT of math. At the absolute least linear algebra/matrices.

I mean, if you went for a more advanced (ala rigid body) physics, you might need some more math. But if you simply use someone's library like Box2D or whatever it's called (instead of writing your own), tons of people get away with zero knowledge of physics.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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As far as what I bought for myself, I have a Chromebook for my laptop needs. Aside from not having a network port, it actually fills all my needs I would ever want from a laptop. Though the reason I needed the network port recently, it wouldn't have helped because I needed to install some software on it to allow me to configure something, and it needed one of the big three OSes to run.

Technically, I do have access to a Windows laptop, but when I was done using it for the network port it had... the screen started acting up. Something that for a desktop, at minimal, I would have to buy a new cable between the monitor and the computer, and at worse, buy a new monitor.

BTW, I love my new networking equipment. I have major power to do crazy stuff that I'm not sure you could do with custom firmware like DD-WRT.

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Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Eric Johnson, if you ever need to clear up some space and get rid of a laptop... let me know. :D

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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Ha, I wonder how much it would cost to ship a laptop to Canada.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Ha, I wonder how much it would cost to ship a laptop to Canada.

You got me. The most I ever shipped anywhere was a CD or DVD of software. ;)

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Shred the hard drives and sell the laptops all on E-bay for like $50 or $100 plus shipping. :P Could make like $150 or $300 or better.



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