Allegro.cc - Online Community

Allegro.cc Forums » Off-Topic Ordeals » Shots and bomb in Paris

This thread is locked; no one can reply to it. rss feed Print
 1   2   3 
Shots and bomb in Paris
GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
avatar

raynebc said:

Air strikes allow a way to quickly attack military targets and contain the damage

Seconded.

As one stated somewhere on facebook:
"-With weapons you can kill terrorists
-With education you can kill terrorism"

My current answer is that we actually need both. I said 'current' because only bigots don't change their minds, and situation are not crystallized. They're evolving too.

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

raynebc said:

reached a mind-set that it's OK to kill hundreds of civilians just to punish their enemies

I don't see it's any less OK than to decide to remove Saddam, or Gaddafi. Nor do I see how these innocents aren't responsible for what's happening in the southern continent. When a Rafale drops a bomb in Tripoli, be ready for an explosion in Paris*. Makes total sense to me. & no, killing isn't ok. Just it's not any less OK to kill a civilian than to kill a militant.**

*- Or when you bomb Grozny, be ready for hostages in Moscow, or a 9/11 after you mess with Al Qaeda. War's war. And if you're in democracy you're responsible for your government's actions. Although well, ISIS'd be more effective if they were hitting the lawmakers.

**- While you're waging a war. And they do, and I'm not that sure who started it, but you sure can't take the blame off the current "victims"(by victims I mean the countries, each death actually is a victim is a tragedy).

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

type568 said:

Just it's not any less OK to kill a civilian than to kill a militant...While you're waging a war

I have to disagree. Intentionally targeting civilians instead of militants/soldiers is the stuff of war crimes and why I see terrorists as lesser human beings.

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

As one stated somewhere on facebook:
"-With weapons you can kill terrorists
-With education you can kill terrorism"

I disagree with the statement. I believe terrorists only want their way and no amount of education will change that.

By reading this sig, I, the reader, agree to render my soul to Bob Keane. I, the reader, understand this is a legally binding contract and freely render my soul.
"Love thy neighbor as much as you love yourself means be nice to the people next door. Everyone else can go to hell. Missy Cooper.
The advantage to learning something on your own is that there is no one there to tell you something can't be done.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

Bob Keane said:

I disagree with the statement. I believe terrorists only want their way and no amount of education will change that.

When does a terrorist become a terrorist? At birth? At a year old? At four years-old? As a teenager? As a young adult?

And why does the terrorist choose his path? Because of comfortable and happy life made possible through modern technology and education? Or because of suffering, marginalization, and a hope to escape the hellhole he currently lives in?

A terrorist of today is very difficult to negotiate with at best. But a terrorist of tomorrow has yet to be born.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / she

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

raynebc said:

I have to disagree. Intentionally targeting civilians instead of militants/soldiers is the stuff of war crimes and why I see terrorists as lesser human beings.

Come on.. Freaking democracy, you elect government which orders a bomb to be dropped. It's not just "freedom", it's responsibility as well. It's comfortable to declare those think so as lesser humans because it's harms your comfort and because your govt's media tells you so. It doesn't make it this way, and the liability isn't limited by morale as it is limited by capitalism while you're owning a stock.

So well.. As long as you bomb an "enemy" comfortably in front of a TV, remember the bombs may very well get to your home. Oh, but don't forget all the suffering terrorists in your country cause is way less than car accidents, despite you spending x10 on defense than road safety.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

An enemy of the entire free world is an enemy of mine. I don't need propaganda from anybody's government to convince me that the cold-blooded murder of peaceful civilians is wrong and the result of a perverted religious fanatic cult. Don't be naive by thinking that the money spent on national defense is a complete waste just because we're not all dead yet. Without that defense, extremists would have destroyed the country by now.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
avatar

bamccaig said:

How does dropping bombs on them do this? Do you expect those bombs to get everybody?

That's why you need to send soldiers on foot there. Dropping bombs from the air isn't going to solve anything. Especially when the bastards keep hiding amongst the civilians threatening to kill them if they try to flee. And then yelling all over the place: "look here, you are bombing innocent civilians."

bamccaig said:

So you admit that some of their justifications are correct. We've, or at least some of the people that represent us, have fucked them over good. Should we not try to atone for that? If we are guilty why should we not at least try to apologize and work it out peacefully?

I never said they weren't, nor I never thought much about our governments. Every government screws people over and even more so if the 3rd world is concerned. But it's not that easy, look at what happened in Algiers, Kongo and all other colonies that in the 60's and 70's underwent the change from the colonial administration to sovereign states. Civil war ensued everywhere.

We don't need to go that back in time, look at what happened in Lybia, Tunisia and Egypt after the so called "Arabian spring". There was a big uproar for civil rights and freedoms yet only chaos ensued. As we speak there are frightened, oppressed people living in Daesh controlled areas. They don't support the Daesh, they just live there and are scared to death.

Not because of Western bombs falling from the sky but because of the cutthroats scaring the shit of them. This should be the main reason for our military help there. Not saving our civilians, but saving those unfortunate caught in the middle of the hell Daesh unleashes on day to day basis amongst the local citizens.

bamccaig said:

Tell them to get in line. >:( Much of our "culture" and products are absolutely horrible.

Agreed :) though, my point was to rather stress out that Daesh or others like them won't even talk to you. They won't recognise you as a human being. Even if you were a Muslim you'd have a hard time unless you could recite the Koran without a hiccup.

bamccaig said:

So more or less their leadership is about as selfish and corrupt and evil as our own. The thing is the leadership isn't really where the power is. The power is in the numbers of pawns that support them. They are likely able to be talked out of it if you can offer them a better deal than the one they're getting now. The same is true of our own pawns.

Yes, exactly. Have you ever heard about the top leaders of Daesh strapping on explosives and blowing themselves up? Nope, they live in luxury and leave the dirty work to others. There's been a lot of cases where a Palestinian suicide bomber gave up to Israeli authorities.

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

@type568: +1.

If we support our government dropping bombs then we're responsible for the destruction those bombs cause. If you don't agree with what your government is doing then you should be trying to communicate to your representatives in government to stop it.

Of course, it's clear that a good number of Americans do support war efforts, but it's also clear that most Americans don't seem to know the first thing about the planet outside of US borders so who are they to make decisions that affect the rest of the world?

It seems that many French citizens also support the attacks these days, but they're probably a little bit emotional about it. I wonder what they'd have to say if you asked them in the street of their strategy. Do they think French planes will just drop a bomb and this problem with go away? If that's what they think then obviously they haven't been paying attention for the past 2 decades.

What is a "militant"? We're not talking about free people enlisting for an army because it's a good opportunity to pay for college. We're not talking about a world power with a refined military force with uniforms, disciplined marching and military bases. We're talking about civilians that take up arms for reasons unknown to us. And they operate among civilians because they're essentially civilians themselves. You can't expect them to target military targets. They wouldn't get close. They're like our criminal gangs (bikers, drug dealers, etc.). The only difference is that where we live we have wealthy governments with more resources than the gangsters. Where they live the government is powerless to fight back and the gangsters run the world.

Since they're attacking "us" it's our responsibility to use our influence over our governments. The government doesn't actually hurt when a bomb goes off in a train station. Those guys are safe and sound in a fortress with champagne and hors d'oeuvres. They're playing god and they're not god.

It seems to me that war itself is a thing of a past. An embarrassing moment in human history before we had the Internet and united worldwide. I don't think we should resort to war anymore. Ever. We should know better. All of us. And we need to work towards working together. We need to stop playing god because we obviously suck at it. History shows us that.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34906011#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

A perfectly good target for bombs that doesn't directly take any lives, just weakens the terrorists.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

I read that the US can't target the fuel trucks because they're driven by civilians, but the Russians have no such squeamishness.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

The article indicates that all the drivers were evacuated before the trucks were destroyed by the US.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

I never heard U.S. using it's financial superpower status to sanction those purchase the oil from Daesh.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

raynebc said:

The article indicates that all the drivers were evacuated before the trucks were destroyed by the US.

The article indicates that civilians were encouraged to get out of the trucks with "warning shots". I wonder where the nearest bus stop was. ::) But yeah, of all the bombing they're doing over there this was probably the most innocent and least harmful. Whether or not it is a fair and effective strategy is debatable. I doubt gasoline is a primary resource for terrorists. They won't be driving their 4x4 to America. It probably hurts the civilian population at least as much, if not more. But I'm sure it looks good to the Western population.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

ISIS won't be defeated by ignoring them, otherwise their influence will spread. And neither can ISIS be reasoned with, so diplomacy is not an option. Most importantly, no matter how "terrible" Western foreign policy is when performing air strikes and other attacks against militants, it's indescribably better than ISIS has ever done to their own members, let alone others. And ISIS is very much to blame for civilian casualties--they use civilians as shields while conducting their activities.

They're the embodiment of a terrible infection. The infected portions must be removed (i.e., military action) and other measures (e.g., social services) must be taken to prevent the infection from spreading and/or relapsing.

Idealism doesn't fix things. You can work towards an ideal world, but it's useless other than creating a vision or goal...

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / she

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

"ISIS" is just a title for an organization of people. It's not an intelligent entity. Stop referring to it as one. There's no hive mind. It's not the Borg. There are individual people organizing it and operating it, and they can be reasoned with. There may be several of them that are completely batshit insane delusional, but the majority of them are probably just run-of-the-mill delusional like all of the religious zealots we have living next door. They can be reasoned with because ultimately they don't believe their own bullshit as much as they'd have you believe they do and they're desperately looking for a life that they can actually live with. The only difference between our zealots and theirs is that theirs are far more desperate, and their leaders encourage them to strap bombs to their chests whereas ours just fund bombs strapped to planes, which is mostly just a social class difference.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

bamccaig said:

The article indicates that civilians were encouraged to get out of the trucks with "warning shots"

The article says no reported casualties and warning leaflets were also dropped. Targeting terrorist infrastructure and resources instead of personnel is as fair as any military strategy can get. And apparently you don't realize this, but it has been well established that selling oil used to be ISIS' primary source of income (to the tune of 2-3 million dollars per day) but as their irreplaceable equipment (ie. trucks) is being destroyed it has become less and less of a money maker for them and now nets them somewhere along the lines of 1-2 million dollars per day. Bleeding them dry of cash WILL reduce their ability to wage war on Western civilization.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

That's well and fair, assuming we could actually do so, but for morality purposes you do have to ask who all does this affect. Does it only hurt the "terrorists"? Does it hurt innocents in the region as well? To what extend is it justifiable? I don't trust any governments to actually do what's right because their own records document them doing the absolute wrongest things. I'm not going to take their word for it. I'm not going to assume that when the news lady or the government representative on TV says this is a good thing that it actually is a purely good thing. It's usually not that simple, and they usually don't want us to know all of the facts (and indeed, we do not). It's healthy to be skeptical, and unhealthy to be faithful.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

bamccaig said:

"ISIS" is just a title for an organization of people.

No, duh?

Quote:

It's not an intelligent entity. Stop referring to it as one. There's no hive mind. It's not the Borg. There are individual people organizing it and operating it, and they can be reasoned with.

You're wrong.

Quote:

There may be several of them that are completely batshit insane delusional, but the majority of them are probably just run-of-the-mill delusional like all of the religious zealots we have living next door.

Religious brainwashing isn't delusional, for the record. Do you know what a delusion is? Oh, and "religious zealots in America" aren't waging war against civilians on any significant scale... So again, you're wrong.

Quote:

They can be reasoned with because ultimately they don't believe their own bullshit as much as they'd have you believe they do and they're desperately looking for a life that they can actually live with.

You're wrong.

Quote:

The only difference between our zealots and theirs is that theirs are far more desperate, and their leaders encourage them to strap bombs to their chests whereas ours just fund bombs strapped to planes, which is mostly just a social class difference.

You're wrong.

Really, you are just as out of touch with foreign affairs as any Fox News or CNN zombie, and your opinion is no more valid than theirs. It's actually worse, because you are trying to humanize the atrocities committed by ISIS...

I mean, I haven't actively developed a "view" on very messy issues such as foreign politics--because there's so many different factors compounded over decades and passed on via generations--so I refrain from anything more concrete, but your posts are really out there...

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / she

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

To be honest, he seems distrustful of news sources to the point of being under-informed and is just guessing or making up things as he goes along.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

raynebc said:

To be honest, he seems distrustful of news sources to the point of being under-informed and is just guessing or making up things as he goes along.

If so, that's a terrible excuse. I treat most mainstream media articles/sources with only slightly more validity than tabloids on any important issue, but I use whatever information they parrot to find trustworthy sources elsewhere. Trustworthy sources varying from the claims made in an article; could be a video statement or evidence (in the case of "Soandso said thingummywut") to the actual sources (and not second-hand interpretations or collections of said data, either)... Proper critical thinking and research skills help filter the mountain information and data found on the internet (and elsewhere, but there's nothing comparable to internet in that regard).

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / she

 1   2   3 


Go to: