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Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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raynebec, you have a better source? Excited to see it and be proved wrong! Unlike you I don't hate being wrong.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
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Pretty disappointing to find that attitude on this forum. Conclude something as leftist and settle the issue, as if everything separated into leftist or rightist, the more revealing and reasonable the explanation is, the more leftist it's. The worst thing is that it's done in a derogatory manner that deserves to be discarded. It's as if they are crying out that they want to be ignorant.

The leftist is only a discriminatory name/label/word.

EDIT ==========================

In case of confusion:
it's: The leftist name/label/word
they: The haters of leftist

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Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Cute, I ask for a source and silence.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
avatar

Changing the subject, this is the Gas Hog game (From Atari 2600):

{"name":"iVMm.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/a\/baf35cacd4f86df8df3ca493f5872cb1.png","w":964,"h":745,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/a\/baf35cacd4f86df8df3ca493f5872cb1"}iVMm.png

I have never been able to finish the whole journey. I was able to advance to this point. When I had the original game on the console it never went beyond the second line.

I quite like this game for some reason, although it is extremely difficult and treacherous. :P

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Rm Beer for President 2020!

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I don't think I ever played that one. I did at one time own this infamous game:

{"name":"612491","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/c\/2c1c57bfebcb13e49e7352250c2c0c0e.jpg","w":624,"h":351,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/c\/2c1c57bfebcb13e49e7352250c2c0c0e"}612491

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
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{"name":"iVuv.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/e\/aed2f62647d550836e9850d2b13986fa.jpg","w":624,"h":351,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/e\/aed2f62647d550836e9850d2b13986fa"}iVuv.jpg

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Rm Beer for President 2020!

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

If I thought they'd consider other opinions honestly, I'd spend the time. I've been in this thread long enough to believe otherwise.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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I'm aware the number is inaccurate, I posted it to troll.

For the record, the reason the number is inaccurate isn't nefarious, the reason is the study is 30 years old. Studies since are very specific to certain areas / environments but still are above average (compared to the general population), with numbers from 25%+.

I did the research before I posted.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Yesterday I went and rode in a BLM motorcade demonstration through the city. :) It was fun and peaceful. They are estimating about 500 people participated, which isn't bad considering how small the city is. There was probably upwards of 100 or 150 cars. There was also a lot of support along the way, with onlookers putting up their arms in support. I only noticed one or two people that seemed offended or opposed. And we made a lot of racket, honking our horns as we drove through downtown and back to the university for speeches.

You wouldn't think racism occurs often where I live, but the black speakers painted a very different picture. A 30 year old woman said she had been arrested more than most people (so I'm thinking at least 3 or 4 times, if not 5 or 6). Obviously implying that she had done nothing wrong, but still been arrested. Considering that when I was 19-21 I was pulled over something like 11 times I can imagine had I been black those stops might not have been so leisurely. It's pretty sad to realize that in 2020 things are still this bad.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

BLM is misguided regardless of how pure some of its followers' intentions are. If they protested the killing of actual black heros like David Dorn more often, or so publicly mourned facts like that nearly all of them who are murdered are done by members of their own race, or that so many of them are aborted (just as Margaret Sanger wanted) instead of hype the outlier homicide/murder cases I'd be much more sympathetic.

The police and the "institutions" of the country aren't racist. You can make a more proper argument that it's a poverty related issue in that poor people are driven into crime more often, and that police subsequently deal with poor people more often, and a certain minority amount of police behavior will be bad. Nobody is perfect all the time especially under stress. All cops should wear body cams the entire time they're on duty. Let the footage tell the story, not a cop or a civilian, either of who could be lying for their own benefit.

It's too easy for people to believe they're victims when a large base of agitators makes sure they think so, and never let them believe otherwise. Why hold yourself accountable when you can blame the entire country for your misfortunes?

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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raynebc said:

You can make a more proper argument that it's a poverty related issue in that poor people are driven into crime more often

Yes, that is a valid argument to show that black people are not more likely to commit crime solely due to their race, but it brings up the question - why are black people in the US so over-represented in the lower socio-economic class.

And the answer to that is because that's where they've always been. Just a few hundred years ago they were barely considered to be people, and were property. It's only been in the last fifty or so years that they've had full equal rights with white people. Yes, black people are better off now than they've ever been, but they're making their way up from the bottom because that's where the system put them.

raynebc said:

The police and the "institutions" of the country aren't racist.

Here in NZ, our crime figures are like yours and Maori people are over-represented in crime statistics, and again this is not due to their race specifically, but because they are generally poorer than white people. Not all our statistics can be blamed on poverty however. Our courts have a system called diversion, where for minor crimes, if it's a first offence, the offender can apply for diversion and they don't have to serve any sentence for the crime provided they commit no further crimes within a certain time period. However, white people are eight times more likely to be granted diversion than a Maori person who has committed the same offence.

There are similar statistics with speeding tickets. If a person caught speeding is only a little bit above the limit, the officer who stops them is allowed to give a warning instead of a ticket. In most cases where a white person is stopped, they are given a warning, but when Maori drivers are stopped they're more likely to be given a ticket.

I wouldn't be surprised to find the same thing happening in other countries where white people are the majority of the population.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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raynebc said:

BLM is misguided regardless of how pure some of its followers' intentions are.

BLM is not a religion. It's not a club. There's no membership. Anybody can show up to a protest, and anybody can act freely of their own free will. Generations of abuses combined with systemic poverty are the reasons for violence within black communities in America.

raynebc said:

If they protested the killing of actual black heros like David Dorn more often, or so publicly mourned facts like that nearly all of them who are murdered are done by members of their own race, or that so many of them are aborted (just as Margaret Sanger wanted) instead of hype the outlier homicide/murder cases I'd be much more sympathetic.

See above. Dorn was murdered by desperate people. People that are desperate precisely because of the racist system. There's absolutely no excuse for the poverty levels of black communities in the USA. White people created those messes, and should be paying to fix them. After holding a people down for 400 years it's not enough to just get off of them and leave them be. You need to make up for all of the harm you've done and try to right your wrongs. Stop blaming the victim and take responsibility for the part that our ancestors played in their misfortune.

raynebc said:

The police and the "institutions" of the country aren't racist. You can make a more proper argument that it's a poverty related issue in that poor people are driven into crime more often, and that police subsequently deal with poor people more often, and a certain minority amount of police behavior will be bad. Nobody is perfect all the time especially under stress.

You can't possibly know whether the police or "institutions" are racist unless you are personally in charge of them. To assert that they're not, despite the evidence to the contrary, shows your bias. Police are far more lenient on white suspects than they are on black suspects. There's no justification for that. A black person that is obeying the law deserves every courtesy that a white person would get. Instead, police discriminate against black people, and shoot innocent people like cowards instead of facing the dangers inherent in their job title.

raynebc said:

All cops should wear body cams the entire time they're on duty. Let the footage tell the story, not a cop or a civilian, either of who could be lying for their own benefit.

All cops should wear body cams, but ultimately the police department is in control of those body cams. When misconduct occurs they can either damage, destroy, hide, or erase the footage. That's why it's so important for civilians to have the right to film police. Typically unless there's video evidence that the police acted wrongly they can literally get away with murder. Unfortunately, even when there is video evidence the supreme court has made it so that they can still get away with murder. It's outrageous, and that should upset you.

Body cams that police wear should be tightly regulated. All footage should be submitted to an impartial third party for auditing, and any gaps or outages in the footage should be met with strict discipline. The footage on those cameras should be considered public property, not the private property of the police department.

raynebc said:

Why hold yourself accountable when you can blame the entire country for your misfortunes?

It just so happens that the entire country has a whole lot to do with their misfortunes. >:( >:( >:( Maybe let's turn that finger around and point back at you. Hold yourself and your peers accountable.

LennyLen said:

Yes, black people are better off now than they've ever been, but they're making their way up from the bottom because that's where the system put them.

They're not just making their way up from the bottom. They're also being held down at the bottom. The "war on drugs" ensures that desperate people likely to fall back on the relief that drugs offer them will be easy targets for law enforcement. Desperation and drug addiction also makes theft inevitable. And a criminal record is a permanent hindrance to employment opportunities (even after overcoming any blatant racism in the hiring process). These people are in these hard times because of abuses and discrimination, but they aren't being helped out. Instead, they're being held down, while condescendingly being told that their misfortunes are all of their fault. It's absolutely disgraceful.

The world is watching, America, and we don't drink your kool-aid. You can deny involvement all you want, but we're not stupid. This is all your fault, and it will continue to be your fault until you make it right. It's not even enough to step back and leave them alone. They require health care (mental and physical), education, and subsidies to overcome the obstacles that you've placed in front of them. They won't be right again for countless generations, and the burden is on you to make it right. You don't just get to benefit from their abuse and wash your hands of it when your ancestors pass on. Their sins have permanently stained your blood line, and until you make up for it it will follow you forever.

Even people that have no historical link to the abuses owe it to desperate people to share your wealth and help them out. Ultimately, it will benefit everyone for desperate people to recover and be productive members of a peaceful society.

Canada has similar problems with systemic racism that also affects black people. It is our indigenous population that has been most abused and they suffer a similar fate in Canada. We haven't yet done enough to make things right, and they continue to suffer. It will be countless more generations before the atrocities that our ancestors and peers committed against them will no longer hold them back. We still haven't done enough for them, but at least our government is increasingly admitting to its role. Of course, that doesn't stop ignorant white people from still blaming the aboriginals for their socioeconomic standing and all of the things that go along with it.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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=D

-----sig:
β€œPrograms should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

LennyLen Black people are also putting themselves at a disadvantage due to their behavior. One of the biggest examples of this is the number of black children growing up in single parent homes. It's hard to build wealth in those circumstances so your children have a rougher start. I'd be interested in an escalating legal system where each person is given a probation slap on the wrist for their first non major legal offense. Instead of assuming NZ is a racist hell-hole, I'm going to infer that there may be justifiable reasons that Maori are given diversion less often. Severity of the crime matters in these cases. Criminal history matters.

Bam David Dorn was murdered by a thug who just had to get a free TV. Do you even pay any damn attention? Black people are holding themselves down more than white people. It is up to them to take the incentives offered by society, many of which are exclusively for minorities. The "slave" card expired quite some time ago. Your own bias shines through in your hypothetical scenarios.

An independent third party should receive and be in charge of police footage, just as it should be in charge of investigating alleged misconduct by police. I perfectly agree that a group shouldn't be in charge of policing itself. Charging somebody with murder requires extremely strong evidence. You may not like that, but it's the way the law is intended to work. Legally collect all the evidence you want, it is your right to do so. Call balls and strikes where they occur instead of mindlessly say the institutions are all corrupt. Even now, radicals in the DNC are calling for the destruction of police departments. They won't know how good they had it when they have to fight crime with their own two hands.

My family did not own slaves. I did not own slaves. I have no stain to clean by washing it with money. I am responsible for my own actions only. Refusing to agree with shady political movementments doesn't make me guilty of anything. As I've said before, collective responsibility is mostly just an ideal leftists put on a pedestal. I don't apologist for using that L word again, it applies.

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
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/dev/void

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Rm Beer for President 2020!

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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raynebc said:

Black people are also putting themselves at a disadvantage due to their behavior. One of the biggest examples of this is the number of black children growing up in single parent homes. It's hard to build wealth in those circumstances so your children have a rougher start.

Agreed, that is certainly an issue, and again, I'm sure it has less to do with race than it does socio-economic status.

raynebc said:

Instead of assuming NZ is a racist hell-hole, I'm going to infer that there may be justifiable reasons that Maori are given diversion less often. Severity of the crime matters in these cases. Criminal history matters.

The severity of the crime is not an issue, because you can only apply for diversion for minor crimes, likewise criminal history is not a factor, because in these cases there is no criminal history - they're first time offenders.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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"Black people are also putting themselves at a disadvantage due to their behavior."

Can you explain to me how generalizing an entire group of people based on their skin color is not racist?

Smh my head, white people are so racist.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

By your own admission, police is either racist or classist. Which is it?

Black people are poor. Poor people commit more crime. Therefore police brutality is ok because they're criminals. Therefore racism is ok. Therefore classism is ok.

If you think the white supremacist police in this country aren't racist, you aren't looking hard enough. Take off your conservative blinders for once.

:'(

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

RmBeer2 People are primarily responsible for their own actions. Anything else is secondary. It's fine to acquire power, money and influence, but it's what you do with it that matters.

LennyLen What are the publicly stated factors taken into account for diversion? Is the likelihood of recidivism a factor?

Aaron I already gave an example. Statistics are data and are not racist. Stop with your sheep mentality and connect the dots.

Edgar I never inferred any such thing about police. Native Americans and disabled people have a higher poverty rate than black people. Hispanics have almost as high a poverty rate, yet these other groups aren't so competitive in the statistics of violent crime. Black people commit a disproportionate amount of that crime so they deal with police disproportionately more. Cultural issues are a major factor here. You can't create generational wealth if you don't raise your children and leave them wealth.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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raynebc said:

Black people are also putting themselves at a disadvantage due to their behavior. One of the biggest examples of this is the number of black children growing up in single parent homes. It's hard to build wealth in those circumstances so your children have a rougher start.

You seem incapable of putting yourself in their shoes. You assume that everybody is equally motivated to act the way that you act because it was easy for you. You fail to understand that clawing your way back up from the bottom, overcoming hate and discrimination your entire life, is a daunting task that few are lucky enough to accomplish. It's not as though millions of people are just choosing to do nothing about their situation. It's that the system is designed to prevent their success. Keep in mind that abuses to the parents or grandparents don't just disappear in their children or grandchildren. The effects are felt for countless generations.

There are also countless single parent white homes, but those children fair an awful lot better. Blaming this on single parenthood is simply ignorant. It's far deeper than that. The single parenthood is a symptom of the oppression, not an anecdote of choices that healthy and happy adults are making.

raynebc said:

My family did not own slaves.

Curious. You seem pretty confident. I have no idea if my ancestors ever owned slaves. How do you know that yours didn't?

raynebc said:

I have no stain to clean by washing it with money.

Your country was built with slavery, as was mine. And both of our countries continued to discriminate against them until recently (and there is still some systemic discrimination present in both). That burden is on all Americans and Canadians as long as we thrive while aboriginals and blacks continue to struggle here.

raynebc said:

What are the publicly stated factors taken into account for diversion? Is the likelihood of recidivism a factor?

I find it really telling how hard you're trying to dismiss the racism in NZ that you aren't even familiar with. LennyLen already said the people being discriminated against were first time offenders. Your blinders are preventing you from seeing it.

raynebc said:

Statistics are data and are not racist. Stop with your sheep mentality and connect the dots.

Statistics are just numbers. They have no meaning. The meaning has to be inferred from the numbers, and that's where the racism comes in. You can interpret numbers many ways. You can assume that black people are just worse in general, and commit more crime just because they're prone to being "bad", or you can look for other explanations that might explain their relationship with crime.

raynebc said:

I never inferred any such thing about police. Native Americans and disabled people have a higher poverty rate than black people. Hispanics have almost as high a poverty rate, yet these other groups aren't so competitive in the statistics of violent crime.

Are you just trying to be dense, or are you really that stupid? Disabled people are fucking disabled. To even suggest that disabled people should be committing crime at the same rate as other poverty-stricken able bodied people is laughable. It shows how you're set on thinking in terms of black and white, and fail to understand the nuances of real life. The answers to these questions exist, and I assure you the answer isn't that black people are inherently bad, lazy, or violent.

raynebc said:

Cultural issues are a major factor here.

For once you may have gotten something correct on this subject, but it was clearly in error.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

bamccaig said:

It's that the system is designed to prevent their success

The system is not designed to prevent their success. That is a popular false narrative, but that's all it is.

bamccaig said:

How do you know that yours didn't?

My mom has studied our family history as a hobby. I have no reason to distrust her because I've always known her to be an honest and righteous person. As for me never owning slaves, I can personally guarantee it. I don't have to care whether you believe me.

bamccaig said:

Your country was built with slavery, as was mine.

Slavery existed, but it wasn't integral to the flourishing of the country. Ending slavery involved the country's bloodiest conflict of all time. The sea of patriots' blood paid an expensive price for freedom.

bamccaig said:

LennyLen already said the people being discriminated against were first time offenders. Your blinders are preventing you from seeing it.

No, you're just too set in your ways to question your dogma. I'm asking why and you're just accepting your truth instead of pursuing the truth.

bamccaig said:

Statistics are just numbers. They have no meaning.

They can have meaning if you use them honestly.

bamccaig said:

To even suggest that disabled people should be committing crime at the same rate as other poverty-stricken able bodied people is laughable.

Now who is making lazy assumptions? I never said physically disabled, and neither did the base stat I used. You need to take your blinders before telling anybody else to do so.

bamccaig said:

For once you may have gotten something correct on this subject, but it was clearly in error.

Your lack of self awareness is hilarious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iHAg68Q_w
In other news, this is what's going to happen in the sh*thole deep blue cities whose "leadership" cowers from angry mobs in puddles of its own urine.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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raynebc said:

The system is not designed to prevent their success. That is a popular false narrative, but that's all it is.

Of course. As countless cities in Georgia with significant black populations face voter suppression. ::) You can believe what you want to believe, but we're not going to drop it and the tower is falling. You'll realize your mistake soon enough (or you're an extremist conservative). Trump is taking the whole Republican party down with him. Do you rock a Confederate flag too?

raynebc said:

My mom has studied our family history as a hobby. I have no reason to distrust her because I've always known her to be an honest and righteous person.

Interesting that in telling your family's history she thought it prudent to mention that your ancestors DID NOT ever own slaves. :-/ ::) While she was at it did she also mention whether none of your ancestors ever raped a goat or flew to outer space? That must have been a long night.

raynebc said:

Slavery existed, but it wasn't integral to the flourishing of the country.

African peoples were captured and transported to the Americas to work. Most European colonial economies in the Americas from the 16th through the 19th century were dependent on enslaved African labor for their survival.

Emphasis mine.

raynebc said:

Ending slavery involved the country's bloodiest conflict of all time. The sea of patriots' blood paid an expensive price for freedom.

Yeah, we know, a whole lot of Americans come from really, really shitty people. And a whole lot of those shitty people passed their ideals on to their children and grandchildren. Surprisingly, losing the war didn't change their minds overnight. They loved enslaving African people so much that they were willing to murder countless of their own people to keep on doing it. Of course, they were sure to have God on their side..

raynebc said:

No, you're just too set in your ways to question your dogma. I'm asking why and you're just accepting your truth instead of pursuing the truth.

I don't hear you asking anything, or even being open to new ideas. You're asserting falsehoods and refusing to debate every time you get cornered.

raynebc said:

They can have meaning if you use them biasedly.

FTFY.

raynebc said:

Now who is making lazy assumptions? I never said physically disabled, and neither did the base stat I used.

I'm confused. Are you arguing also that disabled people are only poor because they choose not to do better for themselves? Or are you arguing that people with disadvantages compared with the vast majority of people should be actively violent towards others, and that they have at least an equal chance of winning in a fight in order to sustain a continuous stream of violence? I was not assuming that all disabled people were physically disabled. I should have said able-bodied and able-minded to be more clear.

raynebc said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iHAg68Q_w
In other news, this is what's going to happen in the sh*thole deep blue cities whose "leadership" cowers from angry mobs in puddles of its own urine.

That does look like an improvement. I Googled "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone" and found this:

...Rev. Robert Jeffrey of the New Hope Missionary Baptist Church talked of being stopped by police more than 50 times.

β€œI’ve been hit in the stomach with batons, I’ve gone through everything and experienced the total demonic structures that is Seattle,” said Jeffrey, who is Black. β€œWhat happened to George Floyd happens to Black Americans in this country everyday.”

Fucking disgraceful.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

I'm done with your stupid racism propaganda, Bam. There aren't enough hours in the day. You can beg forgiveness from the outrage mob for crimes you never committed, but I'm not going to follow the sheep's path. If you want to talk about something truthful or meaningful, go ahead.

As for "CHAZ," I don't think it's going to end well for the rioters.

RmBeer2
Member #16,660
April 2017
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{"name":"iVre.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/1\/915af758d974b228263865d332f95b61.png","w":1018,"h":3438,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/1\/915af758d974b228263865d332f95b61"}iVre.png

🌈🌈🌈 🌟 Web of BlackRook 🌟 YouTube 🌟 🌈🌈🌈

Rm Beer for President 2020!

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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raynebc said:

The system is not designed to prevent their success. That is a popular false narrative, but that's all it is.


Did you know the minimum wage was originally implemented to keep people from hiring black people?

https://mises.org/wire/racist-history-minimum-wage-laws

β€œThroughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded β€” here and there, now and then β€” are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

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