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Seriously.. [Espionage, Conspiracy]
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I'd been wondering whether Thomas would chime in. Do you see the HDD market changing in response to privacy concerns? Open-source firmware would be a dream come true.

Companies are rather particular about their firmware and technical secrets. It's likely that companies will become more tight lipped when it comes to their tech. This news may cause hdd manufacturers to stop biding on US government contracts, due to the us govt often asking for source code to audit (which is done by the NSA, and who could easily just keep the code afterwards).

Other countries are already starting to restrict what tech they will accept, if it has had the NSA's hands on it, they'll likely avoid it. China has gone a step further even, they now REQUIRE source code. Which I really don't see happening, so we'll see what happens there.

The problem there though is, the NSA and even China can just get their guys hired at those companies and steal the firmware that way. Not all that hard. Or just hack into the companies systems.

I want to know if it's possible to detect, and remove it.

It's unlikely to be possible for a mere mortal to detect it. The HDD controller is completely opaque to the host system. It in fact completely lies all the time to the host about the drive itself. You know that CHS crap? It's been a lie since the early ATA days, if not earlier (MFM?). These days they even lie about their sector size. Many larger HDDs are now 4K sector drives, but will advertise 512B sectors to be compatible with old operating systems.

So long as the firmware behaves the same as it did before the infection, I really doubt there's much that can be done to detect it. The firmware can just secretly write data to a file some place, and the OS can't (easily[1]) detect that happening. One possible method might be to check the exact advertised size of the disk. Drives these days are standardized in size, to the byte level, if they are smaller, then something is using up extra space. Of course the drive could leave the size alone, and just return errors, or read from another location when an attempt is made to read the location that stores the data needed to infect the host. Of course that assumes they even need to store the payload on the platters, there might be enough room on the firmware flash. Good luck detecting that.

Quote:

And how much cooperation HDD manufacturers did.

I've read that some manufacturers may have bid on DOD projects, and the gov't could have asked for code to audit. the NSA is the one that does the audit, so yeah. Otherwise as a global company, I'd be wary of letting the Govt get its hands on my code.

References

  1. other than doing some heuristic scanning to detect delays in io requests maybe, but then why would the drive do it when it isn't idle? It'd be best for the drive to do its work when the os isn't requesting anything

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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It's unlikely to be possible for a mere mortal to detect it.

While not easy or conclusive, one could certainly monitor outgoing connections on a fresh install.

Someone (here?) brought up they actually had a huge list of potential NSA projects (covered in the Snowden leaks), and one was a firmware that infected hard drives, misreported their size to half, and used that space for anything the NSA wanted. This could have been the natural evolution of pursuing that project.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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While not easy or conclusive, one could certainly monitor outgoing connections on a fresh install.

You can detect a regular malware infection in the host yes. But the actual infection in the hd controller, not so much. There's no way to access it from the host, and the controller itself can only access the platter, and maybe the host through bugs in the AHCI driver (maybe?).

Actually reporting a smaller size is going to be rather easy to detect. So I think they probably didn't go that route.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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You'd need to monitor outgoing connections from a different device because if the firmware is compromised on the disk that has the operating system your operating system is also compromised. Of course, there's no guarantee that your other system isn't compromised too. Unless you can personally assemble a ROM device to do it. In short, it's impossible to be sure unless you have the specifications for the hardware and have the source for all firmware/software (and the ability to modify it/reinstall it).

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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bamccaig said:

Of course, there's no guarantee that your other system isn't compromised too.

I doubt their firmware is smart enough to hack a pass-through box running Wireshark on Linux to hide specific packets it didn't send.

But even if you wanted to be that tinfoily, hell, run ARM Linux on a Raspberry Pi running on a SD card. It says they had to specifically target EACH hard drive type with PROPRIETARY firmware codes. If you're not running a common HDD, SSD, or flash drive, then it's not likely to be hacked. You could even run a pre-1996 HDD if you were that scared, since there is no evidence the group/department existed before 1996. It certainly wouldn't exist before popular-internet, since its entire purpose is to use the internet.

The virus (clearly an NSA project) also is designed to remove itself after a set period if the control hub doesn't deem it as worthy. It was not designed to spy on everyone, but only specific targets. I applaud them for that foresight and professionalism, but of course that doesn't make me not angry for the intrusion akin to breaking into everyone's house but leaving everything undisturbed if they didn't find any drugs.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Actually reporting a smaller size is going to be rather easy to detect. So I think they probably didn't go that route.

I think they need to hide code on the HDD itself though.. Then perhaps use smaller blocks than reported to hide data?

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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type568 said:

I think they need to hide code on the HDD itself though.. Then perhaps use smaller blocks than reported to hide data?

Not sure what they'd need to hide on the actual disk. Probably got lots of space on the firmware flash.. But if they have to, there's a lot of spare blocks allocated they can use for a smallish amount of data.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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This is quite true. The reason behind this was so it would eventually make it's way into Iran's centrifuge's and mess them up, which they have done. Seems to me there is a hidden war going on with so much spyware suddenly being discovered all over.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I highly doubt they limited themselves to just iran.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I highly doubt they limited themselves to just iran.

You're probably right, that was just the news story I read. They had targeted Iran with some pretty sophisticated software in some of their embedded systems. It would even fool them by altering camera images to make things look like it was all working fine from what I read (It's all fuzzy in my memory now). Fascinating stuff. Now there is this garbage in hard drive firmware and other stuff I have read about popping up all over, it feels like a huge, secret war going on behind the scenes.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Looking through the Wikipedia page for Stuxnet, it seems pretty obvious that Stuxnet was designed by cooperating with the US and Israel, and this part I didn't know, it's been hinted that Israel was considering a military attack on Iran to stop their Nuke program and the USA started (or at least utilized) this program as a less invasive stop-gap. Then again, I'm sure Israel often exaggerates its plans to get the USA to play ball.

I recall a similar strategy during the first Gulf War threatening to enter Iraq if the USA didn't stop Saddam from lobbing missiles at them, which effectively took large numbers of needed US aircraft away from the battlefield to do nothing but comb the desert for needle in the haystack guerrilla missile launching sites. (Spoiler: It didn't work.)

Quote:

A diplomatic cable obtained by WikiLeaks showed how the United States was advised to target Iran's nuclear capabilities through 'covert sabotage'.[125] A New York Times article as early as January 2009 credited a then unspecified program with preventing an Israeli military attack on Iran.[126]

Quote:

Iran uses P-1 centrifuges at Natanz, the design for which A. Q. Khan stole in 1976 and took to Pakistan. His black market nuclear-proliferation network sold P-1s to, among other customers, Iran. Experts believe that Israel also somehow acquired P-1s and tested Stuxnet on the centrifuges, installed at the Dimona facility that is part of its own nuclear program.[44] The equipment may be from the United States, which received P-1s from Libya's former nuclear program.[117][44]

[edit] Oh my gosh is this an awesome quote about Iraq from none other than Darth Vader himself:

Dick Cheney said:

I would guess if we had gone in there, we would still have forces in Baghdad today. We'd be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home.

And the final point that I think needs to be made is this question of casualties. I don't think you could have done all of that without significant additional U.S. casualties, and while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the (1991) conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn't a cheap war.

And the question in my mind is, how many additional American casualties is Saddam (Hussein) worth? And the answer is, not that damned many. So, I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the President made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.[118]

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Huh?! Israel threatening to attack Iraq if the USA didn't do anything?! Do you make this bullshit up as you go, or do you get someone to make it up for you?!

Israel attacked Iraq LONG before USA did!!! Iraq built a nuclear power plant (with the help of France, which was against UN sanctions) and Israel simply sent some fighters in and bombed the shit out of it. End of nuclear power plant. When Israel is threatened, they bomb someone. They don't tend to threaten, they just do it, and they don't run to the UN for approval, a fact I love about them.

Edit: Oh, and Israel has been less reliant on USA for anything (because USA has been very unreliable with the Muslim loving Obama in power) and have been allying with Saudi Arabia lately as they both dislike Iran. Don't be surprised if they carry out a joint attack against Iran given the right conditions, WITHOUT the UN or USA's approval (as unthinkable as that may be).

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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NiteHackr said:

Huh?! Israel threatening to attack Iraq if the USA didn't do anything?! Do you make this up as you go, or do you get someone to make it up for you?!

Wikipedia and 2-part Frontline special.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Sorry kid, I remember the news back then. Israel destroyed a nuclear power plant which was provided by France, they didn't wait for the US of A. They just did it because it was a threat to them. I don't need a website link, I seen it on the news myself.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Because as we all know, local news is never ever biased, or leaves out details about interaction with other countries.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Sevalecan
Member #4,686
June 2004
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It's unlikely to be possible for a mere mortal to detect it. The HDD controller is completely opaque to the host system.

One of the things I spoke to a TI representative about when I worked at Nexteer was using a "bed of nails" setup to test our systems. We could totally make kits for hard drives and use this bed of nails to read the ROM and you could check it against some known checksums for that firmware version (obviously excluding drive specific tweaks). Who doesn't build their own device programmers/readers now-a-days anyway? ;)

Go grab your tinfoil hat and let's get to work! PROFIT!

Also, bambams, regarding injecting instructions into a stream from your hard drive, I'm a bit skeptical that it would be quite that easy. I haven't looked into COFF/PE or ELF formats any time recently but I suspect if you merely injected instructions it would cause code to become misaligned and no longer work. Granted, if it's ARM/RISC like Tomasu says, they might actually have enough power to do a more complicated adjustment of existing code.

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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Look out! There's a conspiracy around every corner!

**RUN!!! THE PARANOIDS ARE COMING!!!**

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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NiteHackr said:

I don't need a website link, I seen it on the news myself.

Unfortunately, the inability to know when to use the words seen and saw is a great credibility killer. Sad but true.

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