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Seriously.. [Espionage, Conspiracy]
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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American Spying HDDs. Now that gets somewhere to fiction level to me. Though what the hell, it gives me the feeling all these global spying stuff which no normal human would believe to were actually true. First Snowden, now this? But a hard drive?!

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I'm not impressed. The article does indicate that these were "targets", not something infecting all hard drives, although I'm sure an NSA designed microcontroller or two sneaks it's way in to most hard drives.

I was pretty impressed with the CCC conference info on NSA spying. They showed how the NSA gathers data from SD cards, USB cables, and cellphones using tiny embedded microcontrollers. I tried searching for the specific video I watched, but there are so many results it's difficult to find, but there were demos. :-/

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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But but.. They told us it's all Chinese & Russian hackers. North Koreans a bit too!

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

The article said:

The disclosure could hurt the NSA's surveillance abilities, already damaged by massive leaks by former contractor Edward Snowden. Snowden's revelations have upset some U.S. allies and slowed the sales of U.S. technology products abroad.

Spins so hard, I needed to catch my breath.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I want to know:

1) Is it a Trojan, or something more clever like it prevents encryption? But a firmware level code capable of internet connections? That's still impressive. Then again, if they can access your files over the internet they don't need to decrypt your mounted filesystems!

2) How to I detect it. How do I delete it.

I want to know what the hard drive manufacturers have to say about this. They had to be in on it, right? So the firmware could be custom suited? Because if not, that means they somehow infected the code for new hard drives without destroying the fact it's firmware.

I think it's amazing not a single person involved in the HDD scandal at WD/Seagate/etc bothered to leak this. (On the other hand, a "contractor in Mexico" is the one that leaked it, if I recall correctly, so perhaps that was one of their manufacturing planets*.)

[edit] *Wonderful typo.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I want to know what the hard drive manufacturers have to say about this. They had to be in on it, right?

They do quote several of them in the article. They say they're not "in on it", but they also say they have government source code audits based on other contracts or something (going by yesterday's memory).

I just got an NSA-enabled device in the mail! A Samsung Galaxy TabPro 8.4! So far so good -- can't wait to send the NSA my dick pics! ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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Theoretically, if a computer had one of these bugged devices on it BUT was not plugged into the net, could it be accessed still?

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I suppose if you can compromise the firmware, and there's enough space in the firmware program for it, you can inject whatever instructions you want into the streams the computer reads from the drive. If you happen to know that specific files are executable code, and especially if you know they're part of the operating system or drivers, then you could just inject whatever additional instructions you wanted into them as they are read. Of course, it seems to me that would require much more memory than should be available for firmware programs... Though I guess in theory it just needs to be big enough to inject a single program long enough to connect to a remote server, download and save the results somewhere, and load up those results to run them and the program could do anything the remote server instructed it to do thereafter.

That's the only explanation I can come up with for being able to call home, etc. Unless the NSA is hording some futuristic wireless networking technology, or the kernel or disk/file system drivers themselves are exploitable.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Derezo said:

I just got an NSA-enabled device in the mail! A Samsung Galaxy TabPro 8.4! So far so good -- can't wait to send the NSA my dick pics!

I actually had an idea for something like that. Sending encrypted data within socially taboo things, like dick pics.

Actually, weren't the terrorists already smarter than the NSA, and sent intel inside SPAM messages? So the NSA wasn't looking at the spam blocked intel.

[edit] Linky

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Is nobody else alarmed by the article's spin? Phrasing like that keeps ignorant masses thinking that Edward Snowden is some kind of terrorist/traitor: Edward Snowded "damaged" the NSA, thereby "slowing the sales of U.S. technology products."

Yeah, and news reports "damaged" Son of Sam, thereby "slowing New York businesses during night hours." ::) Look, I'm glad some guy wrote the article. I'm glad a big news agency decided to publish it. But someone along the line put spin on the article that's going to make my mom and dad put down the morning paper and say, "Tsk, tsk, tsk. That Edward Snowden, causing problems for the country..."

Try it. Ask an average, elderly citizen or two what they think of Edward Snowden, and see what they say.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Is nobody else alarmed by the article's spin? Phrasing like that keeps ignorant masses ...

The purpose of big media is not to inform you of the facts or make your life better in any way.

The purpose is to control what you believe so that ultimately your decisions and actions will align with the goals of their corporate stakeholders. Furthermore, most governments are now property of those corporate stakeholders, and therefore will also likewise align their actions.

Snowden directly attacked these stakeholders. I say that's good -- we are at war with those people. The article spins it as bad. They represent those people.

[edit: ... better words]

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I'm not surprised at all when media spins Edward Snowden. That doesn't mean I approve of it.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Well, what are we going to do about it?

I can't do much, but I've decided to talk with my parents. It may be the first time I have ever intentionally brought up a controversial topic with them. If anyone has any stories of success or failure with regards to handling controversial topics with loved ones, I'm mostly ears.

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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I see. Thanks for answering my question.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Well, what are we going to do about it?

Read some Sun Tzu? :-/

Get involved in your community and don't take mass media too seriously. They're in it for themselves.

I've brought up these controversial topics with my parents. It was fruitless for me. My mother was offended, albeit at the time I was a bit more aggressive, paranoid, and was reading garbage like infowars. YMMV, of course. Your parents are not my parents (at least, AFAIK).

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

What offended your mother? I could see my mother being offended, if she perceived me as talking down to her, but I could also see her being an ally, if she knew how much the world today troubled her son. That's what mothers do.

My old man has a bit of the same but is a bit stronger of opinion.

Theoretically, if a computer had one of these bugged devices on it BUT was not plugged into the net, could it be accessed still?

Theoretically, no, that is not possible. A device not connected to the Internet cannot, by definition, access the Internet.

If the question is whether or not it is possible for a device contained within a hard drive enclosure to access the Internet on its own accord, the answer is yes. KeySweeper, for example, could fit inside a 3.5" hard drive case.

If the question is whether or not you or anyone you know is in possession of such a device, the answer is "not likely," and if the question is whether or not you should spend significant time worrying about it, the answer is "hell no."

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

What offended your mother?

It was quite a few years ago now. The discussion was about the war in Iraq and 9/11, although Bush was almost out of office at the time. She was of the opinion that the war was right because of 9/11.

I admittedly got a little angry about what she was saying, because it really was quite ignorant. The discussion got ugly real fast, and if correcting someone's errors is "talking down" to them then I was definitely "talking down"!

I learned my lesson and no longer bring up foreign affairs. There's no reason to, either. I could make dinner and tell my mother it was a dish called Boko Haram and she would be none the wiser.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
avatar

Thanks Gideon.

The trouble is, if this topic was worth kicking up a fuss about, then the idea of not being able to have private data (regardless of whether it's a game, the family photos of a trip to the local zoo or the whereabouts of the body parts of a serial killing spree) is something to get bothered about.

I guess anyone with a computer automatically is buying into this espionage shit, so it's a case of "Don't want to be snooped on, don't have a computer, otherwise quit complaining."

That or start learning about electornics so as to be able to delouse this buggy gear we're buying into.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

It's really up to our generation to hold the government accountable. Nevermind convincing your parents of the problem. It's not their problem and for the most part they are set in their ways. It's our problem. Spend your time where it matters: on younger people that have the energy to fight, and are open to new things. Get involved in online activist movements that will keep you up to date and help you to organize your efforts. Learn how your political system works and take an active role in it, even if that just means keeping a loose eye on the candidates and voting at election time. Even better if you help to expose misinformation campaigns during the pre-election cabaret show and encourage peers to think extra critically prior to taking sides or voting. And of course, encourage peers to give a damn and cast their vote after careful consideration...

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I totally believe there are HDDs with spying firmware onboard. HDDs are just platters with an ARM or RISC SoC attached with flash for the firmware. HDDs have greater cpu power than the raspberry pi, and many other similar boards. Many have 2+ cores, and 64MB+ ram.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

I'd been wondering whether Thomas would chime in. Do you see the HDD market changing in response to privacy concerns? Open-source firmware would be a dream come true.

bamccaig said:

Nevermind convincing your parents of the problem. It's not their problem and for the most part they are set in their ways.

Half of this is a good point, though I disagree that it's not their problem. They may not perceive it as their problem, but if they use a computer, it is their problem. Furthermore, because they depend upon the U.S. economy, it is their problem.

Engadget has a report that addresses William's question. Here's hoping that targeted countries cancel U.S. imports. That might get the message across.

I'll report back after talking with the parents... It won't be soon. We don't get the chance to talk often these days.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

I'm waiting to react until more info comes out. I want to know if it's possible to detect, and remove it. And how much cooperation HDD manufacturers did.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Click here to see which countries are targeted how often. (Image is from page 20 of the full report.)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

I'd been wondering whether Thomas would chime in. Do you see the HDD market changing in response to privacy concerns? Open-source firmware would be a dream come true.

I don't see this happening unless people force it to happen, and most people just won't care... I certainly think we need it to happen with all hardware and software... It needs to be opened so that you can ever trust it again...

Append:

Raiu said the authors of the spying programs must have had access to the proprietary source code that directs the actions of the hard drives. That code can serve as a roadmap to vulnerabilities, allowing those who study it to launch attacks much more easily.

"There is zero chance that someone could rewrite the [hard drive] operating system using public information," Raiu said.

Concerns about access to source code flared after a series of high-profile cyberattacks on Google Inc and other U.S. companies in 2009 that were blamed on China. Investigators have said they found evidence that the hackers gained access to source code from several big U.S. tech and defense companies.

It is not clear how the NSA may have obtained the hard drives' source code. Western Digital spokesman Steve Shattuck said the company "has not provided its source code to government agencies." The other hard drive makers would not say if they had shared their source code with the NSA.

Seagate spokesman Clive Over said it has "secure measures to prevent tampering or reverse engineering of its firmware and other technologies." Micron spokesman Daniel Francisco said the company took the security of its products seriously and "we are not aware of any instances of foreign code."

The dummies are either missing the point entirely or intentionally misleading the public. The problem isn't that the source code was accessible, but that it wasn't. If it was accessible then white hat hackers would review it and fix the problems with it instead of letting the black hats exploit it... Which is easy for the NSA because...

According to former intelligence operatives, the NSA has multiple ways of obtaining source code from tech companies, including asking directly and posing as a software developer. If a company wants to sell products to the Pentagon or another sensitive U.S. agency, the government can request a security audit to make sure the source code is safe.

So the people doing the spying definitely have the source code. The only way to even the playing field is to give it to everybody else too.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

About how the miscelenous firmware functions, I didn't google it yet but I would assume this: firmware hides whatever HDD space nesessary for the actualy miscelenous software. It can easily be hundreds mb without anyone noticing nowdays.

Append:
I'm in shock how silent the media is about it. Reuters, and some other news sources I never heard of. Got a bit more covered in Russian language it seems, but just a bit. Nobody cares, really.. Seriously. The most massive spying uncovored, & ... Silence.

Append1:
This is what is looking like some real data on the topic.

Append2:

Kasp's Employee said:

“Another dangerous thing is that once the hard drive gets infected with this malicious payload, it is impossible to scan its firmware. To put it simply: for most hard drives there are functions to write into the hardware firmware area, but there are no functions to read it back. It means that we are practically blind, and cannot detect hard drives that have been infected by this malware” – warns Costin Raiu, Director of the Global Research and Analysis Team at Kaspersky Lab.

You kiddin' me, right?

Append3:
Moar food.

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