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Free Software Foundation (FSF) - 2014 Giving Guide
Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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bamccaig said:

It is absolutely nonsense to argue that the GPL is not freedom-centric because of this.

It is your opinion that it is that and I did not say the GPL is not freedom-centric. I said the freedom it grants is incomplete because of restricting my freedom like it does. If everyone's freedom restricts my freedom then that "everyone's freedom" is by definition not "everyone's" freedom since I too am included by definition in the circle of people that constitutes "everyone".

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For example, if you were absolutely free to do whatever you wanted then you could pick up a brick and beat an infant to death with it (regardless of what it would say about you to want to do it).

I could(only in a sick theory though), regardless of the fact that I would not and regardless of the fact that I find it disturbing to see your mind coming up with that idea and bringing it into this for whatever odd reason.

To use your words (and to continue the twisted nature of that unrelated example): The definition of freedom does not care what you consider fair or logical or in this case, acceptable and sane by certain commonly accepted moral/ethic standards (to which I do subscribe, do not ever think I would be capable of committing an act like that but that particular attempt of yours to make a point is moot because the described act is unrelated to the topic of software licenses and fails to render the definition of freedom invalid (which is what I assume it was trying to do) or to have any logical connections/consequences for the way the MIT license or the GPL works).

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The GPL exists to protect people generally from evil corporations. The MIT licenses do not accomplish this at all. A selfish, greedy entity can take MIT licensed software, make some malicious modifications to it, and release it against unsuspecting users. They have no obligation to share the code with us and they can restrict our right to reverse engineer their code by law so we have no legal way to check if they do or don't have malicious features. Albeit, these days you can just assume it, but you can't prove it so the vast majority of people remain oblivious victims.

Whereas the GPL would force the entity, by law (to the extent it can), to release their modifications and allow us all to see these malicious features. We'd be able to remove them, and also be able to hold the entity accountable. The entity would not even attempt to add those features knowing they would not be allowed to hide them from us. The GPL exists to let we the people beat selfish, greedy entities (typically corporations) at their own game. Primarily, it exists to free our computing.

Those, contrary to your other (invalid) example involving the pointless murder of another living being, seem to be valid points and work much more towards me understanding what the GPL is about at this point in time.

I do however, still think the MIT license also protects me/my software from that to happen because of all the strictly logical derivations of its exact structure/wordings and their implications on what is in theory permitted and what is not, depending on the model of re-use that is being applied, as described earlier.

I am now, actually considering GPL though, as it seems like it does more to ensure those implications can not be misunderstood within the system of law as it works in practice(despite being highly illogical and in that regard insane in my opinion). It would limit my freedom but at the same time protect parts of my freedom against those who might like to take it away from me which would be important for me to always be able to continue to use/develop my software and to permit everyone else to so as well (with certain restrictions to their and my freedom though).

I am starting to wonder whether those restrictions of my freedom (by the GPL) are actually important for any practical reasons. I may join the FSF after all... but I do not like the way that the suggestion of fear (having to fear being ripped off by some corp)... is driving me towards considering the GPL. It feels like being manipulated with fear by the FSF (or one of their members in this case) in much the same way as religious people, questionable political figures and insurance brokers use fear to manipulate people.

One question: if the GPL is that great, why is Allegro not GPL'd?

Elias said:

You don't have to include any source code at all either, but if you do, it all is under the new license not under MIT.

Yes but only in that version of yours and only the code that you wrote. It does not change anything about the MIT licensed code upstream, not even within your project. The MIT licensed pieces will always stay MIT licensed no matter how many different other licenses you put in for other parts.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Dennis said:

I am starting to wonder whether those restrictions of my freedom (by the GPL) are actually important for any practical reasons. I may join the FSF after all... but I do not like the way that the suggestion of fear (having to fear being ripped off by some corp)... is driving me towards considering the GPL. It feels like being manipulated with fear by the FSF (or one of their members in this case) in much the same way as religious people, questionable political figures and insurance brokers use fear to manipulate people.

The major difference between this fear and the fear used by religions or politicians is that this fear is based on reality, and it can be demonstrated and proven using scientifically valid techniques (for example, reverse engineer the software, or socially engineer the people). It isn't fantasy that people and corporations intentionally put malware into software to exploit or hurt people. It's factual and it's not really disputable.

Dennis said:

One question: if the GPL is that great, why is Allegro not GPL'd?

Most people fear the GPL, just as you and others did when beginning this thread, and some of the Allegro developers do as well. They don't care if Allegro is used to abuse people. They want it to be free (libre) for anybody to use for any purpose, and they don't want to risk the GPL scaring people away from using Allegro. I guess they never really saw SDL coming. :-[

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

Well, but still SDL is not licences under GPL proper, surely that's not the main reason one should fear scarcity of adoptions.

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Back in the day, Microsoft took the open-source Kerberos Web security technology invented by MIT and added it's own "extensions", claimed they were a trade secret, then when Slashdot readers posted info from a MS website that required a non-disclosure agreement, invoked the DMCA.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-240422.html

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Praise Him!
{"name":"609068","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/f\/0f487dc71105bb55a9f3b577eaf3359e.jpg","w":709,"h":980,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/f\/0f487dc71105bb55a9f3b577eaf3359e"}609068

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Back in the day, Microsoft took the open-source Kerberos Web security technology invented by MIT and added it's own "extensions", claimed they were a trade secret, then when Slashdot readers posted info from a MS website that required a non-disclosure agreement, invoked the DMCA.

As much as Microsoft has pissed me off today alone as I attempt to setup Windows Server 2012 R2 on a laptop next to me. (Wireless networking is disabled by default, thanks Ballmer!) I almost want to side entirely with Microsoft on this one.

If my understanding is correct, they weren't trying to censor mere discussion. They were trying to take down content that was only available to people who... in essence... signed a non-disclosure agreement. I really don't see any difference between that and Viacom being mad you uploaded Family Guy to YouTube.

Unless, however, the Kerberos Web security technology in question was once public domain and they arbitrarily decided to "close it" and then invoke the DMCA to squash it. That would be bad. Unless it's a new specification derived from the old public one, which becomes grey grey legal waters indeed.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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If my understanding is correct, they weren't trying to censor mere discussion. They were trying to take down content that was only available to people who... in essence... signed a non-disclosure agreement.

The part that's stupid is that Microsoft essentially gave anybody anonymous access to the software, but then tried to claim that it was a "trade secret" because they prompted you to agree to keep it secret. There's nothing particularly secret about something you give to anybody at all without knowing who they are just because they checked a checkbox in a Web browser. They then apparently tried to prevent people from discussing the differences between the open source software and the extensions or changes that Microsoft had made.

To tip it further against them, it was another example of them taking something standard and open and trying to add proprietary extensions to take control over it. Which may have been perfectly legal, but it was and is completely unethical, greedy, and selfish. And it's also a very fine example of exactly why the GPL is needed and good.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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The (old) rebuttal to Torhu's image

{"name":"BillGatusOfBorg.gif","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/4\/f44e3cea30eea679e26931723a5941a4.gif","w":382,"h":364,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/4\/f44e3cea30eea679e26931723a5941a4"}BillGatusOfBorg.gif

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Dennis said:

It feels like being manipulated with fear by the FSF (or one of their members in this case) in much the same way as religious people, questionable political figures and insurance brokers use fear to manipulate people.

People have, and will continue to abuse the GPL. Theres a reason the GPLv3 was created, to close certain loopholes manufacturers or service providers were using. Also, there is an entire organization dedicated to going after GPL infringers, it is very common, many places, like india and china just don't take it seriously. They assume they can just get away with using and distributing GPL code without providing the source in some form, or a way to build it.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

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