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What. The. Hell.
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Senate approves funding for Israel’s Iron Dome

Now we're paying a quarter of a billion dollars to directly fund a country that's killed over 1,200 civilians in the last month?

What. The. Hell.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Because not doing so would be anti-semitism.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Because not doing so would be anti-semitism.

:'(

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Hamas is the one that put civilians in harm's way, encouraging/forcing civilians to ignore evacuation warnings from IDF while they store weapons in and launch them from civilian sites, fire indiscriminately at civilian/military targets, kill their own country's people with misfires, etc. Is Israel really expected to put up with endless rockets fired at it and having insurgents build and use tunnels to stock supplies and mount attacks against it?

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I really can't see how people think that criticism of Israel is the same thing as an endorsement of Hamas. Hamas is a bunch of monsters. But that doesn't give Israel the right to be monsters, or exemption from criticism when they behave like monsters.

Israel is supposed to be the "good guy." Right? We'll, they're using children as human shields too.

If the United States of America used children as human-shields, we'd be in extremely big trouble. If we found some of our soldiers doing it, it would be an international outrage and those soldiers would spend their lives in prison. But when Israel does it, it's okay, because they're the victims, right?

If Canada, Finland, Germany, or any other civilized country blocked humanitarian aid to civilians, they'd be called monsters right? But hey, it's Israel, and they're the victims in all this, so it's okay.

So let me be clear. My problem is not "Israel." My problem has no allegiance to any country or any label. My problem is that innocent men, women, and children who have never held a gun in their life are being killed... and then worse, the world is treating their deaths as reasonable. And that disgusts me.

If a single one of those deaths was an American citizen, the world would be at arms. But because those people are not aligned with a powerful country, they're worthless collateral. Meaningless dirt people.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

The use of human shields is Hamas' regular MO. IDF forbids it, and I really don't see that article cites any proof that it happens anywhere outside of rare occurrences. IDF will often cancel air strikes when they find civilians/children there, but nobody really believes Hamas would extend the same courtesy. IDF is stuck between the options of not fighting back and being destroyed, or fighting back even though Hamas surrounds themselves with children at all times just to make Israel look bad. Self preservation is more important than taking the hits and not retaliating just to avoid Hamas' PR trap. If IDF had a feasible way to destroy all insurgents with no civilian casualties, I truly believe they would pursue it.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Thank you Raynebc... it's good to see someone pays attention and has a brain in here. Yup, that is Hamas policy. Launch their rockets at Israel from homes close to women and children, schools and what not, then when Israel defends itself and inevitably kills some of them, the Hamas can yell "see?! Look at them purposely aiming for out women and children! Won't somebody think of the children?!?!?!" It's sickening, and you see the liberal, braindead reporters falling for it lock, stock and barrel.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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NiteHackr said:

Launch their rockets at Israel from homes close to women and children, schools and what not, then when Israel defends itself and inevitably kills some of them,

When you lock a few million people into a tiny space, everyone is close to everything.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Let's not forget the main issue: Israel is occupying Palestinian land, which they shouldn't be doing.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

That depends on one's interpretation of the situation. Does anybody have right to land that they have conquered? Israel's military operation here was to strengthen its security after continually escalating attacks from Hamas, not to attack Palestinians in the way Hamas exists to attack Israelis.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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raynebc said:

Does anybody have right to land that they have conquered?

Everything has been "conquered" countless times over. You'd never sort it out if you did try.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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raynebc said:

That depends on one's interpretation of the situation. Does anybody have right to land that they have conquered?

In a civilized world: no. But this has been Israel's mode of operation for decades.

Quote:

Israel's military operation here was to strengthen its security after continually escalating attacks from Hamas, not to attack Palestinians in the way Hamas exists to attack Israelis.

Occupying someone's land is a pretty aggressive move in the first place, don't you think?

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Do you people realize, that people are looking to the UN to help with these problems. IF the UN is to decide who is a legitimate state, and who is not, than Israel is THE MOST LEGITIMATE STATE IN THAT REGION as it was the UN that created the state of Israel in the first place. The countries surrounding Israel lost land when they all attacked Israel, only they underestimated Israel's ability to defend itself and they actually lost land. Had it not been for the USA intervening, Israel would have marches straight into Egypt. Now they have been whining and complaining ever since about the land they lost. It's their own damn faults for attacking them in the first place.

Anyone who things Palestine and the Hamas want peace with Israel is an IDIOT. This conflict will continue until Israel is wiped out, or the world quits interfering. It seems to be a common theme these days, foreign conflicts erupt and suddenly the USA is the world police who swoops in to save the day. We need to butt out and let them resolve their own conflicts. Then maybe groups like the Hamas would stop using women and children as pawns in their media propaganda games.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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NiteHackr said:

IF the UN is to decide who is a legitimate state, and who is not, than Israel is THE MOST LEGITIMATE STATE IN THAT REGION as it was the UN that created the state of Israel in the first place.

I'm so glad you brought up the UN. Because the UN has said that Israel is now accused of war crimes.

So if the UN is the sovereign authority for that validness of Israel, then the authority just condemned their actions as monsters.

Meanwhile, I wonder why Palestinians are so angry...

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The Native Americans were glad to give up their land for our God-demanded mission! They didn't fight back or anything once we told them we were the most legitimate owner of the land.

My points aside, I must restate that I'm not against Israeli people at all, or pro-Hamas. I'm anti-killing civilians.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
avatar

Right? We'll, they're using children as human shields too.

1) [1]
2) Says a body that gives Hamas rockets.
3)

video

LennyLen said:

When you lock a few million people into a tiny space, everyone is close to everything.

Israel often uses precision munitions that do little damage to surrounding buildings. Firing rockets (or storing them, as is often the case) from a couple of buildings over from a school/hospital, while still unacceptable, would do wonders in ensuring the safety of that school/hospital.
If Hamas wanted their civilians to be safe, they'd:
1) Not store weapons in their schools/hospitals/houses.
2) Not tell them to ignore Israeli phone calls warning of impending bombs, or "roof knocking" bombs.
3) Not force them to ignore Israeli phone calls warning of impending bombs, or "roof knocking" bombs.
4) Not boobytrap their houses once they leave (to kill IDF forces), leaving their homes as deathtraps for when they go back after the conflict.
Instead, Hamas is actively increasing their own civilian deaths (It's fine, they're Shahids) to create a PR mess for Israel, vastly increasing their civilian death-toll, which could have been much much smaller. They've even occasionally accidentally hit their own people with their rockets (though they still blame Israel for that...).

Here's a roof knocking bomb in action (randomly found in youtube, comes from a gazan news source)

video

Note specifically that they report the homeowner managed to get away, and that the neighbouring house is still standing strong. If you go back a bit in the video they also report Israel is evil and kills many children, so you know they're "real" :P.

torhu said:

Let's not forget the main issue: Israel is occupying Palestinian land, which they shouldn't be doing.

Lands they lost any moral rights to when they attacked Israel back in 1948, in spite of the fact that inviting all neighbouring countries to peace is in Israel's motherfucking declaration of independence.
Lands that help keep some strategic depth to help Israel defend itself.
Lands that if "returned" will allow Hamas (or any enemy using that territory) to constantly bombard the entirety of Israel with inescapable explosives.

torhu said:

In a civilized world: no.

Israel holding territory for self defense after being repeatedly attacked is 1000x more "civilized" then all North and South American countries from occupying land they stole from Indians and Aztecs, or any European country occupying land they conquered from various tribes (which themselves conquered them from someone else, most likely). Or are you saying that because that was a long time ago in an "uncivilized" time than that is okay? (In which case, just wait a few more years and everything will be fine)

NiteHackr said:

Had it not been for the USA intervening, Israel would have marches straight into Egypt.

Yup. Worth noting - Israel took the entire Sinai Peninsula, an area that is 60,000 square kilometers in size (much bigger than Israel itself!) and is rich in oil (which Israel does not have), and it was glad to give it back to Egypt in return for peace.
The truth is that if it was possible to make peace, Israel would have made it already.
While I admit that there are some problems with our political system; The more left-wing/liberal/peaceloving/moderate parties have much lower voting percentages than the more right-wing parties. The parties that seem to best represent the interest of "the common man" are also right-wing parties. Constant conflict with Hamas just boosts the strength of the right-wing parties. All of this does not really contribute to peace. However, the prime minister that will be able to bring peace to Israel will be perpetually hailed as a legend, canonized for the rest of Israel history; If anyone can do it, they will.

My points aside, I must restate that I'm not against Israeli people at all, or pro-Hamas. I'm anti-killing civilians.

That should make you vehemently hateful of Hamas and silently appreciative of Israel.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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That should make you vehemently hateful of Hamas and silently appreciative of Israel.

Nobody is pro-Hamas killing children. Nobody should be pro-Israel killing children.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Nobody has ever made greater efforts than Israel to avoid civilian casualties in a war.

You sound a little too certain about your leaders.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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American people have no fucking idea what atrocities their soldiers commit while deployed to war-zones. If they knew they'd be livid for all of 15 seconds before Fox News changed to Justin Beiber's new tattoo. That is all.

I don't know anything about the Palestinians or Israelis, but I'm glad to have some of them here in Allegro, and I'm glad to have shared conversations with another Israeli over Google Hangouts. I'm not sure that I've ever interacted with a Palestinian though. I think all religions involved are stupid. >:(

I wish for everybody to put their emotions aside and look for an intelligent solution to the problem. Uniting the people as one is probably the only solution (since there would be no agreed upon fair way to resolve things otherwise). Those affected just need to look at each other as friends instead of enemies and work together to help each other out to build a future that is shared by all. That will take decades, but it has to start sometime.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

As is obvious, Hamas does not want peace, it wants to annihilate its enemy and it openly states this. You can't really consider an ideal outcome with that type of extremist. After a more reasonable government is established in Palestine, the possibility of peace can be revisited.

Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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Nobody has ever made greater efforts than Israel to avoid civilian casualties in a war.

Bullshit. I didn't want to participate in this thread, but this was just too much, they are the ones who are dropping the bombs, remember?

____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
avatar

You sound a little too certain about your leaders.

You sound a little too misinformed of the situation.

  • Again, the UN gives Hamas rockets that it knows will be used to try and kill Israeli citizens (children included), so "The UN says that..." is very weak evidence.

  • That article is from 5 years ago and happened a short while after another war. Do you know the exact situation? I don't, and the article does not even try to reveal it. Why did Israel deny aid? Is it possible it is because it was still too dangerous to enter Gaza? Is it possible it is because it was still too dangerous to allow free movement around Gaza? Is it possible that Israel was yet unable to inspect all goods for smuggled contraband? Maybe it is because Israelis need muslim blood to soak their matzas in? That article is full of nothing.

  • You should also remember that many goods that are provided for aid purposes end up being hijacked by Hamas and used for their own nefarious purposes. For example, concrete that is meant to rebuild damaged homes ends up supporting the same tunnels used in this war to infiltrate Israel and attack Israeli citizens. The only reason Israel ever sent soldiers into Gaza in this war is specifically to destroy these tunnels, and many casualties on both sides could have been avoided if only someone could make sure that concrete was used for positive purposes.

  • Where in that article does it mention that Israel itself provides aid to Gazans? Did you know Israel supplies most of the electricity to Gaza for essentially free (technically they owe us hundreds of millions of dollars for it, but they haven't paid for years and no one intends on cutting it off)? Israel also supplies water. Does it say that?

  • Did you know Egypt currently also prevents any supplies from entering Gaza via its border (even though it used to be open)? Egypt which is a muslim, arab, country stopped supplies from entering Gaza because Hamas were such colossal dicks that they decided opening that border was more trouble than it is worth; Perhaps there's a good reason the transfer of goods is heavily restricted?

If I sound certain that Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties it is because I know it does. As you may recall, Israel has mandatory conscription, so you know I used to be a soldier. As a soldier I saw many things to support my claims, from commands on how to deal with certain situations, the attitudes and words of the men in charge, to the efforts put into technology to make it less lethal and more precise specifically to avoid unintended fatalities. There is no doubt that Israel is working extremely hard to prevent any civilian deaths.

bamccaig said:

I think all religions involved are stupid.

That I can get behind with, as I'm an atheist. However you need to realize that the problem is not strictly religious, even as an atheist I'd be afraid to live in another country as I may be prosecuted for my "jewish ethnicity". If another madman tries to kill my entire ethnicity I'd much rather have a country that will take me in and protect me and not be surrounded by countries that refuse to take in jews while the holocaust is taking place to avoid importing any racial problems.

Bullshit. I didn't want to participate in this thread, but this was just too much, they are the ones who are dropping the bombs, remember?

I take it then that if I fired a rocket into your house you'd take the time to bake me cookies and try to talk me into being your friend? If you are still alive that is.
Israel is dropping bombs on motherfucking terrorists that want to see every Israeli men, woman and child dead and are currently trying to do just that. Unavoidably, some civilians die as a result of those bombs since Hamas works extremely hard to make sure that they do. It seems like you choose to ignore all the efforts that Israel does to minimize those deaths (calling bombings ahead of time, dropping bombs that alert citizens to escape before the building explodes, using much less lethal munitions to prevent as much collateral damage as possible etc.), which makes your post seem inflammatory, so I'll be honest and say that if you are trying to troll me then you succeeded, I am indeed upset, and I request that you stop (if not, then I hope you realize why I mistook your post for trolling and accept my apology for accusing you of such, since I have no personal grudge against you and my general impression of your other posts in this forum is positive).

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

Again, the UN gives Hamas rockets that it knows will be used to try and kill Israeli citizens (children included), so "The UN says that..." is very weak evidence.

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Where is your evidence the UN gives HAMAS rockets?

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