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Allegro 5 "marketing" :)
l j
Member #10,584
January 2009
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The last time I recall this community being quite rude was when a noob whose basic understanding of programming seemed flawed, wanted us to pretty much make his homework and then said we were all noobs and can't program when he was given basic tips and explanations instead of a complete program.

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Reading through the first bits of SDL's and the official Allegro website.

SDL's front page, first paragraph:

Quote:

  1. cross-platform library

  2. low level access

  3. to audio, keyboard, mouse, joystick and graphics hardware

  4. via Open GL and Direct 3D

  5. used by video playback software, emulators, and popular games including Valve's award winning catalog and many Humble Bundle games.

That is a pretty good description.
The first four points apply to Allegro 5 as well. :-/

Second to last paragraph:

Quote:

  1. supports Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, iOS, and Android. Support for other platforms may be found in the source code.

  2. is written in C, works natively with C++, and there are bindings available for several other languages, including C# and Python.

  3. SDL 2.0 is distributed under the zlib license. This license allows you to use SDL freely in any software.

So here we have platforms, languages, license. Very precise, concise info.

Allegro 5's official website, first paragraph:

Quote:

  1. Allegro 4 and Allegro 5 are

  2. cross-platform

  3. open source

  4. game programming libraries

  5. primarily for C and C++ developers

In comparison to SDL, this could see improvement. This is especially due to Allegro 4 and 5 being treated together in the first paragraph. Note that Allegro 4 is even mentioned before Allegro 5, therefore becoming the first thing mentioned on the whole page... :-/

While saying it is "primarily for C and C++ developers" is technically true, SDL's way of saying the same thing is cleverer, because it doesn't appear to be a limitation.

"Open source" is also true, but it could also mean that Allegro is GPLed, which it isn't.

"game programming". Hmm. While this may be the primary motivation behind it, its scope is wider than that. Anyone wanting to create an OpenGL window cross-platform for whatever reason could use it. Also, there is nothing in the code tying it to games (as probably opposed to engines).
SDL's way of saying it is again smarter, because they describe what it actually does "low level access to ... graphics hardware" while stating that it is widely used for games later.

Let's also take a look at the introduction page:

Quote:

  1. Allegro 4 and Allegro 5 are

  2. cross-platform libraries mainly aimed at video game and multimedia programming

  3. handle common, low-level tasks such as creating windows, accepting user input, loading data, drawing images, playing sounds, etc. and generally abstracting away the underlying platform.

  4. However, Allegro is not a game engine: you are free to design and structure your program as you like.

This is much better already. But it's a separate page. :(

I like the last point.

IMHO "low level access to audio, keyboard, mouse, joystick and graphics hardware" sounds much more appealing to newbies than "handle common, low-level tasks such as creating windows, accepting user input, loading data, drawing images, playing sounds, etc. and generally abstracting away the underlying platform".

What if you want a fullscreen game and don't even know you have to "create a window"? ;D
Not to mention that - while it is technically more accurate - it just sounds more boring. :)

IMHO we should have the platforms in there, but of course they aren't, because you have to decide whether you want Allegro 5 or 4 first. As said already, this shouldn't be the case.

Further down:

Quote:

Allegro only supports 2D graphics primitives natively, but it is perfectly reasonable to use Allegro alongside a 3D API (e.g. OpenGL, Direct3D, and higher level libraries), while Allegro handles the other tasks. Allegro is also designed to be modular; e.g. if you prefer, you can substitute another audio library.

To start the paragraph with describing a limitation is unfortunate here, because 2D graphics primitives are actually a feature (on top of native OpenGL and Direct 3D).

No offense meant at anyone, but I thought I'd demonstrate precisely what I mean.

We could just copy SDL's text and replace "SDL" with "Allegro 5", but we probably shouldn't do this.

I propose to:

  • Merge front page and introduction page

  • Write a new text for this page, which should mention everything the SDL folks mention on their page: short, attractive definition; platforms; languages; license

  • Put (legacy) Allegro 4 on an extra page, where we could also describe the library's long and proud history, its origins dating back to the Atari ST and the glorious old days of DJGPP.

  • We could link to this page from the front page at the bottom (Allegro is ... "with a proud and long history dating back to" ? 1992? (link).

Besides what the SDL folks do, we should probably also mention these points on the new front page:

  • Is not an engine => more freedom and flexibility, higher performance (I guess :) )

  • can be used alongside 3D API (e.g. OpenGL, Direct3D, and higher level libraries), while Allegro handles the other tasks

  • Anything else? List of features?

I would have tried to write a new text myself if I had more time available, which isn't the case right now.

Comments?

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Sounds like a good start Poly!

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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I'd be up for contributing in a small way if I could; not sure how I could help but I can do basic graphic work or maybe some writing, or any basic donkey work really, spell checking or information gathering, would like to be more involved. Let's not forget that whilst the allegro library itself has been kicking all other libraries in the nuts since DJGPP and RHIDE, the community here is one of, if not the best online, in my hokum opinion.

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

... And I asked my wife for a logo, she came up with this:
{"name":"608424","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/3\/53526cc6ec8b8dcba62d9fb4b6b2d50f.png","w":548,"h":164,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/3\/53526cc6ec8b8dcba62d9fb4b6b2d50f"}608424

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Hmm, looks cool. Whats with the stuff in the curlies?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Hmm. Yeah, that's the weak point. The idea was that these are the things (platforms) you don't have to care about anymore because the grand Allegro 5 abstracts them away and ... err ... unifies your experience with its giant integrating curly braces :)

Maybe it's clearer with ellipses?

EDIT: Or perhaps someone else has an idea what to put into the curly brackets?

{"name":"608425","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/a\/daa16d4ea1ae1751b556d24f5f2ec261.png","w":548,"h":164,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/a\/daa16d4ea1ae1751b556d24f5f2ec261"}608425

Maybe she'll have another idea.

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

@ Dizzuy egg: if you don't know what to do, then I suggest you work on cleaning up the wiki. There's tons of pages that need to be updated, so I think you might fine a few you can contribute to.

@Polychromos:

I like the ideas for improving the web site text.

I like the text part of that logo, but the curly braces (suggesting C programming, I guess?) seem a bit too "generic" . How can we emphasize, perhaps though the use of some kind of icon, that Allegro is for low level graphics/game/multimedia applications through the logo?

Maybe the inside of the braces could be arranged to look like a game pad on a screen, surrounded by a earphone. Or such???

AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
avatar

That logo rules!

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

You shouldn't try to put too much into a logo. I think Allegro5 does simply too much to express it all at once. The idea behind this was the abstraction, which I feel is the main feature. But you're probably right that it should also try to show allegro's "area of work", i. e. graphics etc.

At least it's a starting point. I like the text part, too :)

Another idea: ;D

{"name":"608426","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/b\/eb47698cacc1b0e41a70e3c1bd2bc5fc.png","w":436,"h":156,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/b\/eb47698cacc1b0e41a70e3c1bd2bc5fc"}608426

Edit: Yes, you can express all that Allegro does in a logo 8-)

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
avatar

Poly, that's pretty cool, but I read it as all-egro, and I think hmmm....what is egro?

On the original, could we try lots of 1's and 0's, maybe spelling out Allegro in binary? Or is that a bad idea...

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

@Dizzy: This wasn't entirely serious of course. "Allegro" in binary could be an idea, but I'm too tired to figure it out now.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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What's wrong with the current logo?

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

SiegeLord said:

What's wrong with the current logo?

logo.png

Are you referring to this? It's just the text "Allegro", in italics... made in about 5 seconds on some web-based logo creator 15 years ago :P

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Regarding SpecterPhoenix, he left because of a bad joke that went too far in his eyes. I don't believe it was meant to be insensitive or rude, but it came out that way. Alienating people sucks, but it happens. As far as his programming ability goes I never saw him produce anything except for talk. It sucks that he is pushing people away from Allegro, because that is the last thing we need.

Regarding a logo, there is the unofficial Alex the Alligator, but that is really the intellectual property of Johan Peitz. Are we talking about replacing the {allegro.cc} game developing community network logo on allegro.cc? I think what we have to realize is that allegro.cc is mainly a forum, and not intended to be the website for allegro, which is totally separate. That logo is really for a.cc, not allegro itself, and we could come up with a totally separate logo for the allegro website.

Anyone can post news on the front page, it just needs to be approved by whoever does that (Matthew? AK?).

There is a todo list for A5 on the wiki, but I think it needs updating.

I agree that the current docs could use a little more meat on their bones. Explanations of functions are generally terse, and could use a little more info.

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

SiegeLord said:

What's wrong with the current logo?

Well, the fact there is NO actual logo may be something... :P ...but...also

Elias said:

Are you referring to this? It's just the text "Allegro", in italics... made in about 5 seconds on some web-based logo creator 15 years ago

elias is quite cliear and spot on, refresh THAT image can only be good.

I like Polybios' proposal (well his soulmate's one actually), but I'd put the curly braces around allegro (as in a.cc "logo") or to the right, like in a "strictier" C syntax mockup.

And I'm hoping the search for a logo is something for the LIBRARY and not restriceted to a.cc only, as Edgars points out a.cc is "simply" the community behind the library but...as I have read on gamedev, there's some feeling of "official" in this site for newcomers.

Anyone can post news on the front page, it just needs to be approved by whoever does that (Matthew? AK?).

Hardly ever useful in this way, as I already said there's need for a current community website; as it stands there is a TON of things that need maintenance (and do not receive it) for no practical reason...all that could be removed with no harm.

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

Yodhe23
Member #8,726
June 2007

I think having some well documented tutorial/example games (sic) on the wiki would attract a lot more people/fresh blood.
I don't know about other people, but as an eternal newbie I really like to have some code to play with at first to see whether I want with get to know a particular library/tool. I would find it very frustrating in life if ever time I wanted to see if I liked a piece of technology I HAD to read the manual in depth first to even just turn it on and play. I think Allegro needs to be more accessible and not expect people to have even necessarily a grounding in computer science. The thing I think that people seem to forget, is what is obvious for one, can be an obstacle for another. Sometime I just get "blocks" in my understanding, until something is explained anew, or I see from another perspective, but please don't jump down my throat cause I don't grok it like you.
Anyway this conversation is refreshing, and I hope it bears good fruit.

www.justanotherturn.com

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

Yodhe23 said:

Sometime I just get "blocks" in my understanding, until something is explained anew, or I see from another perspective, but please don't jump down my throat cause I don't grok it like you.

I Agree 100%, this happen to me a darn LOT (outside the programming field as well) and I understand but:

Quote:

I think Allegro needs to be more accessible and not expect people to have even necessarily a grounding in computer science.

...not necessarily ok, but let's not expect Allegro to be plug-and-play more than it can be, it's still a low level library and AT LEAST requires you to understand how to link an external library to an executable (or at least what doest it mean )

On this very topic, we should add some general references about this in the wiki for people looking for help, to general porgramming resources and a bit if in-house explanation, that could go a long way with not that much effort. Anyone agrees?

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Further ideas for front page text:

  • Clear API with a very consistent and intuitive naming scheme

  • which is the result of a complete redesign/rewrite/... based on the experience of 10+ (?) years of providing an easy-to-use library (something along those lines)

  • List of features: detailed and nicely grouped - this makes everything less abstract / more practical

  • Friendly, active community which is always willing to help :o

  • Anything else?

The list of features should, for example, also contain the file formats you can load with it etc. because I think such things are important for newbies.
Of course it should then say that you can also use your own custom loader etc.

pkrcel said:

On this very topic, we should add some general references about this in the wiki for people looking for help, to general porgramming resources and a bit if in-house explanation, that could go a long way with not that much effort.

Hmm. Don't know.

IMHO the most important thing the Wiki should provide, is Getting started guides/tutorials for each of the supported platforms. These should be easy to follow, clear and above all, up-to-date.

There should be a central "Getting started" page that can be linked at from the official website. Right now, you have to choose between Allegro 4/5 in the Wiki, too. I think that's not a good thing, since we don't want any new user to get started with Allegro4 anymore.

The central "Getting started" page should instead contain links to the different platforms (i. e. more of what is now the "Allegro 5" page). Maybe Allegro 4 can be featured at the bottom as "legacy option" or something like that.

If we assume that a user arrives via the official webpage at the Getting started page on the Wiki, I think the first thing, he or she needs is not a link back to the official webpage.
Maybe we should feature the Wiki and this community prominently on the official website instead. It can be in the Wiki, too, but maybe not on "Getting started", but "Resources" or something (I like the Wiki site though :) ).

We could also move the Getting started guides to the official website, but I think it's easier to maintain them in the Wiki.

Edit: Is there an official FAQ? I think one of the things one needs to mention, for example, is that you should put your sprites etc. on one texture in order to minimise texture/state changes with Allegro 5. This is quite counterintuitive if you don't know it, I think. :) Maybe in a technical way, a nice feature would be a texture atlas tool as part of the distribution? With a corresponding addon maybe, which would support reading a sprite sheet and creating subbitmaps according to it? I think that would be something a newcomer could benefit from.

What do you think?

AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
avatar

What about just the letters?

{"name":"608427","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/6\/b62b4342ba951c69db90f40c6bb7e7a9.png","w":374,"h":164,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/6\/b62b4342ba951c69db90f40c6bb7e7a9"}608427

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

Love that O

;D

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

It is a free font called SciFly, if anyone wants to experiment further.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Yodhe23 said:

I think having some well documented tutorial/example games (sic) on the wiki would attract a lot more people/fresh blood.

I know they aren't games, but I did try to get some basic Allegro 5 tutorials up: http://wiki.allegro.cc/index.php?title=Allegro_5_API_Tutorials

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
avatar

If the new logo is literally the old logo with a different font, I'm voting against it :P. In my opinion, it needs to have an alligator on it.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
avatar

Alligator = Gay



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