Allegro.cc - Online Community

Allegro.cc Forums » Off-Topic Ordeals » Annexing Uktaine. Objections?

Credits go to Aikei_c, Chris Katko, Derezo, gnolam, jhuuskon, Matthew Leverton, Max Savenkov, OICW, Thomas Fjellstrom, and torhu for helping out!
This thread is locked; no one can reply to it. rss feed Print
Annexing Uktaine. Objections?
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

pkrcel said:

I suspect that in this case crappy Ukraine politcs are the main "offensive" and the cathalist for the Russian intervention, that is the difference I was speaking about

Rather yes than no.

OICW said:

Sounds a bit shady, don't you think?

With the current UA government in power, I literally can't imagine Crimea NOT willing to be annexed. You speak Russian(in many cases only, and so did your dad living in the same place, and his dad). Then your language is revoked the status of official. You're offered to join a country with a lot higher level of life that is ready to subsidize you. Will you say no?
If you're not Russian, are you sure you support Ultra Right party at power?
Yes it has siezed power as it was actually most radical, and seized power by force(including force with firearms).
If the party is a transitional government, it doesn't rush disgusting laws in parliament, it keeps the country in order until the next elections.

Legitimacy of the authorities willing to have referendum is questionable. Relevance of the referendum is not. The west pushes for cancelation of the referendum and not a fair referendum enforced by U.N. though(I guess that is because they're sure Crimea will vote for Ukraine, right?).

So be it what it is. There will be western polls anyways, and everyone knows the answer will be Russia. That is why the referendum idea condemned as whole, not the potential lack of fairness.

The Russian approach is rather rude, but it IS for the good of Crimea. It's condemned because if everyone achieves their goals this way things go really bad in our world. But the point is that everyone who can do it without concequences does it anyways(cough N cough AT cough O).

I pity the other Russian regions though(well all of Ukraine, but for clear reasons I'm more conerned with the Russian speakers).

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

I really don't get why they would revoke the russian language as official. A lot of people there speak the language, even if they aren't living in Crimea.

I understand being a little upset with the previous "russian friendly" regime, but talk about a kneejerk reaction.

type568: do you know/think if the majority of ukrainians would actually support the stuff the "transitional government" is doing in a permanent basis?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

I can't be absolutely certain, but I'm almost sure that not. The radical nationalist far right, purposefully making life difficult for an ethnic minority(which is majority in many regions, just so it has happened not in the capital city)..

Which actually why the eastern side not-acceptance of the regime has a basis. And why I view the current western actions as a double standard. Europe accepts violent regime overthrow by an extremist party as a legitimate new government? Seriously?

And out of context:
{"name":"bH5-Dlwo9Ow.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/5\/55c74c3ba8734ed9e004df1c09097ac2.jpg","w":427,"h":604,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/5\/55c74c3ba8734ed9e004df1c09097ac2"}bH5-Dlwo9Ow.jpg

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

I think we're all forgetting... what would Jesus do?

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Suicide?

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
avatar

I think everyone's forgetting the key factor here; our planet is run by a bunch of put-to-power by any means necessary no balls no real charisma no real wit no real intelligence morons who are powered and sustained by more, no balls no real charisma no real wit no real intelligence morons, who are publicised by even more morons with none of the above, who's reports are spouted, made to memes and believed by even more morons with none of the afore referenced above...

....basically, the situation in Ukraine....like the situation was in *pick a country*....like the situation on this planet....like the situation since man picked up a stick....like the situation in my head....is all just f*****g arbitrarily desperately winging it, putting those that will and 'might' get away with it in the spotlight, and praying it all goes well and there's something to gain out of it all.

And that's all I have to say about that.

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Damn, this guy's weed.. Heh.

Max Savenkov
Member #4,613
May 2004
avatar

I'm now reading that Ukrainian government actually did not repeal that law about Russian language. Their parliament did, but repeal was not approved by executive branch (whoever it is presently).

Then again, it all hardly matters, since all sides will continue their propaganda no matter what facts say. My boss is in Kiev presently at our local office. He will be coming back during the next week. I hope to hear something about real situation there from him. Last time, he said that Ukraine was a nice place to do business currently, because the government can't collect taxes and fire-safety inspection isn't working, so you don't have to pay them off (fire safety and health safety inspectors are a bane on all small and middle-sized business in former USSR countries, because they ALWAYS can find something your company violates: rules and laws are made to be impossible to comply with on purpose).

On Crimea: it seems to me, that Russian actions in Crimea bear signs of a planned operation. I guess its elements were put in place for an occasion when Ukraine would be weakened by something, and now Putin commanded their activation to try to gain something from current disaster.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
avatar

type568 said:

If you're not Russian, are you sure you support Ultra Right party at power?
Yes it has siezed power as it was actually most radical, and seized power by force(including force with firearms).

type568 said:

And why I view the current western actions as a double standard. Europe accepts violent regime overthrow by an extremist party as a legitimate new government? Seriously?

Whoa, wait a minute man. I'm not well informed about the political parties of Ukraine, but I hardly believe that the new prime minister Yatsenyuk is some ultra right nationalist whatsoever. Sure, during the protests, some ultra-right radicals were there as well, but the protests began with students. Then when the students were beaten up, common folk came. It has happened before in my country in 1989. We have overthrown the socialist regime back then, does that make us ultra-right?

Anyway, what I see now are the Crimean so called self defence units beating up journalists. I see the point of that, people behind this don't want journalits sniffing around and threatening their FUD propaganda. Do you think that a referendum backed up by armed bullies and unmarked soldiers of a foreign state means freedom of choice?

See, the biggest problem is the propaganda, sure on both sides but from what I can tell it's total bullshit that goes on on most Russian channels and the lack of information and abundance of disinformation. I highly recommend reading up the column by professor Zubov and this article by Timothy Snyder for reference.

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Were you performing armed patrols a month after your revolution?[1]
So riot police that stood under molotov coctail fire with no shot fired for weeks, is dissolved and replaced with armed thugs. That's, urm.. Very innovative. And not radical at all.

Although apparently I was misinformed somehow(I mean it this time). There is a problem with these guys(Praviy Sector & Svoboda), but they don't run the house. Guess I did fall victim of the propaganda.

Now Oligarchs[2] got some of the regional power. Of course pro-western news source describes how good it is, but I see it as payment for their investment in the revolution. Actually there was some more detailed article about who got what. It's not just three guys. Nothing "just happens". The protests were well organized, and funded. Either by the west, or the Oligarchs. So essentially, one group of thugs has replaced another one. Probably with the U.S. help, as I touched the topic in another thread here on A.cc.

Overthrown, by any means necessary.[3]

I don't have a TV, and due to the fact there are two biased positions, and no shit is neutral I try to base my opinion on sole facts, or at least opinions offered by the west. (if you glue a solid model using data of "opposing camp", you're probably close to being correct, assuming your logic is appropriate)
Of course you can call it a "wise move" to put Oligarchs to power, but why does it happen so suddenly? No elections, no shit. And it happens right after a very expensive power overthrow happens. Sounds like a "thanks", to call it softly.

I've encountered the first link you have given, and I read it before. I strongly disagree, and I find the comparison disgusting. It would be appropriate if Putin was actually to annex Ukraine, not just the Russian land with Russian people, who want to be annexed. It's extreme nonsense Crimea and some other regions were given to Ukraine after dissolution of the Union(Russian majority, given to Ukraine? :/).

And I'll go further. Hitler's annexation of Austria is of course not appropriate. However, it partially is: the part that was annexed to Austria after world war I. It was totally wrong to take German land with German people away from Germany even though Germany has started the World War I, and it was totally right to take it back. It wasn't right to take any more than this though. Ironically nobody makes a comparison with post WWI annexation of the German land by Austria. Well, winners aren't judged.

Oh,and..

OICW said:

I can tell it's total bullshit

I think you're more than 101% right. However, I really can't imagine a news channel that is any different. CNN? No better. Wicked propoganda, just closer to your mentality so you can accept it with less salt(but I bet your still take it with kilograms of it per liter of their news talks). Russia #1, #2.. CNN, BBC.. It's no news sources. You can only use'em for facts usable against their stated opinion. But majority of such facts never get released by them of course. Oh, also they can maybe be used to balanced one against the other. Grab a topic, mix CNN with RT, or CNN with Al Jazzira, or some Chinese news stuff, depending on the topic. If it touches Russia Russia Today suits the most. This way you may get an opinion close to the real stuff.

We have touched huge topics. I'm done for now. But I've said half of what I got to say, at max.

Append:
A lot of small edits to make it more readable. Also removed one of the links.

Append1:
{"name":"608358","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/4\/54fcefbffdd887aa7a5e8ac6270e6d5c.jpg","w":604,"h":377,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/4\/54fcefbffdd887aa7a5e8ac6270e6d5c"}608358
Translation:
-"Ukraine, why are you so sad?"
-"A peninsula has dumped me. And you know who did he go to? To his ex!"

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

{"name":"608364","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/b\/2bbe5f06c1ddd84fe177ef03ca2b4644.jpg","w":598,"h":385,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/b\/2bbe5f06c1ddd84fe177ef03ca2b4644"}608364

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
avatar

type568: yes, I think that we can both agree to the fact that the situation in Ukraine is far from ideal and that there's lot more going under the hood. I bet that many of those things (armed thugs instead of Berkut units, oligarchs, etc.) wouldn't be that much of a problem if it wasn't for Russians stirring up the chaos on Crimea.

Anyway, unmarked Russian soldiers on an unsolicited visit of another sovereign country, we've been there already. And don't tell me it's self-defence in that case why isn't anybody missing at least a battalion worth of military vehicles? Making a referendum in this situation is crying out loud: "forced takeover". Not to mention that in order for it to be constitutional it would have to be an all-Ukrainian referendum.

And yes, I'm well aware of the fact, that even western sources are biased that's why I'm not relying on a single source. At least they're not reporting about a fascist takeover etc.

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

OICW said:

wouldn't be that much of a problem if it wasn't for Russians stirring up the chaos on Crimea.

How so? I never got any news about any blood in Crimea actually. Probably pretty much because of the forces stationed there.

Quote:

Not to mention that in order for it to be constitutional it would have to be an all-Ukrainian referendum.

This is nonsense. The people that live there should decide this themselves, the two million that live in Crimea, not the 42 that live in the rest of Ukraine. They were never given the choice actually.

Quote:

Making a referendum in this situation is crying out loud: "forced takeover".

Yes, & no. From one side, would not Russian forces be deployed there there would be no referendum. Ukrainian army would've entered and secured the area. And I've no doubt the majority DOES support the change of authority.

The story is of course.. "illegal"
However, either it is right or not we maybe able to learn after independent polls(preferably by some appropriate western media) to see the actual vote distribution.

Aikei_c
Member #14,871
January 2013
avatar

type568 said:

Ukrainian army would've entered and secured the area.

That's pure speculation. Ukrainian army may not be used in internal conflicts according to the constitution, has never been used so, and army leaders have always stated that they will never interfere into internal affairs, even the bloody Yanukovich was not able to make the army follow his orders.

Referendum? OK, even Kiev authorities say that they do not exclude a possibility of a referendum and open to negotiations. However, Russian forces are shooting into negotiating parties sent to Crimea, do not want any negotiations, etc. They even turned off all Ukrainian channels. Is this how you see an orniary referendum? Looks more like an Anschluss to me.

If they want a refenredum, they need to create conditions where both views can be campaigned for and expressed. And they must give enough time to conduct the referendum. Like that was in Scotland. Referendum about Scotlands independence was announced a year before it would be conducted (it will be conducted in September 2014, I think), and all this time both sides explicitly promote their views and given equal possibilities.

Crimean euromaidan leaders have been kidnapped and are probably tortured now. Ukrainian channels were disconnected. Even cable providers were forced to disconnect Ukrainian channels, too.

Not to say that Crimea is completely occupied by Russia now.

Is this what you think democracy is? Oh well.

This is just an open annexation of Ukraine, it has nothing to do with democracy, will of the people etc.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Neither side wants to make it the right way, besides Russia doesn't have the means to do it the right way from beginning til then end, cos' it really doesn't have a legal basis for interference(although well, it doesn't recognize the new government, so perhaps it has some basis).

It isn't annexion of Ukraine, at most- part of Ukraine.

Crimean Euromaidan leaders were kidnapped? Uh? I even bother to google it now(Perhaps I missed something as big as this?). Well, I can't see. Oh, and I want a normal source, if you want to bother to prove anything. CNN/BBC doesn't count. Reuters, Guardian something like that. AP perhaps.

The fact it's not done the "democratically open way" doesn't make the locals want it any less. What happens in Britain is a legitimate question, with no ready answer. What's going on(or ever went) in Crimea has no question. They didn't want to join UA when they were annexed to it, they'd love to have a referendum before. Clearly they were not given for clear reasons(Center of pwoer(Kiev) doesn't want to lose any power). And nobody cares about the people(not then, & not now). Nevertheless, anyone who has any understanding of the background(historical, social, and current economic) can't argue what would majority of Crimeans prefer.

Furthermore, the wester talks aren't about a legitimate referendum. The alternative position to Russian is a "no referendum". From this point of view making it any more open or whatsoever would only complicate things because the west, or Kiev ain't going to recognize it under any cicrumstance(nor like anyone really cares). The western chit-chat is about UKranian constitution, not the people who's will was never represented in the sheet of paper.

Of course Russia wouldn't interfere if it had no interest in the story, but from moral side the actions are totally just. The people of Crimea benefit, and nobody else has the right to tell them whom they join.

Should Kiev or the west not question the legetimacy of the referendum, but would enforce it's fairness they would get the fairness. Only that this fairness would not give the west what it wants. The west won't get it anyways, but at least Russia is bad this way. Can talk sanctions, never apply any.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

The the people choose to separate from the Ukraine in a fair referendum, than why not. The people who vote to separate from Ukraine and even join with Russia know what they are getting, if that is what they want, than why not? After all, the current government leader of the Ukraine wasn't elected at all in democratic elections, the elected leader was ousted merely because he sided with Russia... it definitely feels like a lot of foreign interference here, and I am not talking about Russia! I support Russia's move to protect their people. Plus it is in their interests as they do have an important naval base there and we all know what would happen if the tables were turned and it was the USA that wanted to protect their interests and protect their military base, don't we? How ironic that the USA tells Russia not to invade another country. Am I the only one that sees the irony here? At least in the Ukraine there are actual Russian people that WANT them there... which is more than we can say for the USA and places like Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Well, not all of the Ukranians nor even of Crimeans WANT Russian forces there, but there certainly are those who do. (and not few paid elites, but masses. bigger or smaller)

However.. This website, which is no news source at all for me has an intersting opinion about the Russians there. They're employees of private "millitary" firms, which may or may not be so. And they maybe hired by anyone, some could be of Ukranian origin or whatsoever. (those could've hired'em: Russian businessmen/oligarchs, Russian govt, Ukranian Oligarchs)

Anyone. Or of course they maybe Russian soldiers.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

One could say the same thing about the protestors that wanted to side with the EU, perhaps they were placed there by the EU and the United States, military persons masquerading as protestors, the next thing you know, the democratically elected leader of the Ukraine is ousted and what a surprise, the new leader is against Russia... these conspiracies can go both ways you know. Or you can just look at the facts and leave them out of it.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

Facts? The fact is that Russia is using its vast power to bully a smaller country. They have no business in Crimea. A referendum could have been held either way. The military base was never in danger.

Regarding the irony you talk about: two wrongs don't make a right.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Well. You both are right I guess, only thing I disagree with is Vanetto's claim that referendum could be held either way. Not it couldn't, and it wouldn't. Kiev & the west said so. Russia said otherwise, but also supported its statement.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

It could if the new ukraine govt wasn't being stupid about it.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Well, not the new & not the old didn't want to have it which is perfectly logical, generally speaking. And about the new govt stupidity. Well, and probably if not the western supprot for the new govt position regarding the referendum. The chit-chat about constitution is really such a nonsense about this case. It's not what Ukraine has to decide, just the Crimea's enough.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

type568 said:

It's not what Ukraine has to decide, just the Crimea's enough.

Except that they are part of the ukraine whether they like it or not. Legally, now that the referendum laws were revoked, anything they do won't be acknowledged by the ukraine, and could be seen as an illegal action. It'd be like California deciding to succeed. It probably wouldn't be legal, and the federal government could intervene however it sees fit.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

& the fed govt would be right, until so it'd happen the people would be against the interference. The fed would still intervene, but if it'd be against the locals it'd be against the moral. About which nobody cares.

Now when the Crimean's don't like(& never did like) being part of Ukraine, now they can stop being part of it. Whether the west OR Ukraine like it or not.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

They would have to revolt, much like any american state would. There is no legal right to succession. So they would likely end up in a bloody conflict which I don't really think either side wants.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730



Go to: