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Do you like grinding?
Biznaga
Member #3,180
January 2003
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I think it depends on the battle system. Is it enjoyable?

Fifteen or so years ago I enjoyed grinding in Final Fantasy. Not anymore.

Recently I've had great fun messing around with Dragon's Dogma that I don't even care if I'm grindind or not.

I enjoy Demon Souls' combat but if I die and lose my souls I think I played for nothing all along.

There are games like The Witcher 2 (if I rightly remember) where grinding has no sense since you get XP only through quest completion, not fighting.

Does people really like grindind? What are your thoughts on this?

waldfee0071
Member #14,840
January 2013
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It realy depends on the people. Some like it, others don´t. Guess it´s that simple.

For me personally I like it to some extent.
For example in Final Fantasy games grinding is kinda okay. After losing to a boss and grinding a level or two and then approach him again is fine for me, but making it, that you have to grind several levels in every new area, so you can barely keep up with the rising enemy levels is not.

If you have ever played the game Cladun or Cladun x2(prefer the 2nd one) you know how enjoyable grinding can be. In the game you have a pretty simple job-system. If you re-job you lose 30% of your gained stats by then. Though stat-growth through leveling again will increase the overall stats, which make it worth it. And you learn new skills because you are learning a new job.

Tl;dr: Unless it is really beneficial I don´t like grinding.

Jeff Bernard
Member #6,698
December 2005
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The Disgaea games are all about grinding. Level up to 9999, reincarnate your character, resetting them back to level 1 so you can start all over again. The main story in each game is easily beatable around level 100, but you're probably going to want your characters to have combined levels in the tens of thousands (if not more) to take on the post game content. Not only do you have to level up your characters, but you have to grind up your equipment too (only up to 300 (at least D4, earlier Disgaea games may have had a cap of 100 or 200, I can't remember)). For even more grinding, the games now have the grinding of stat aptitudes (basically how effective characters are at wielding items), completely independent of level grinding. I don't know how many hundreds of hours I've put into D4, but I'm at the point where I can level my characters from 1 to 9999 in probably under a minute. AND there's still more post-game stuff I haven't done yet.

Grinding works really well in those games because the entire gameplay is designed around grinding. Grinding in all other games is bad. Actually, games are usually more fun if you don't grind (unless you don't like a challenge, then you should just watch a "let's play" on YouTube).

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OnlineCop
Member #7,919
October 2006
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Take a look at the iPhone app, Blockheads. You can play for as long as you want -- for free. But they build in a grind mechanic to just sap your time. They make a ton of money (multi-millions already, and it only came out last month) because you spend real money for speed-ups.

The people who play it for free get everything out of it that the paying players get, albeit slower.

In this mindset, I prefer grinding over shelling out real cash. I really like the game, and accept the fact that I have to put my device down (while it's doing its "time till finished" countdown) whenever I want to do anything.

In fact, my current and upcoming jobs both work off of this free-mium model. Players apparently are "happy" to pay their way out of grinding, so we make the games grind as much as possible without turning them off to the actual games.

Just food for thought.

(But I am the type who, while I can beat a game at level 40~ish, will still grind all the way to level 99 just so I can say I've done it.)

Emanresu
Member #12,510
January 2011

It all depends on how fun the grind is and how bad your OCDness is. Look at some of the games back in the 1990s and 2000s. Diablo II comes to mind first for me. I could easily go through and beat the game; however I always like filling out the map whenever I played. I don't know how many hours I've spent just grinding in that game. Same crap over and over again, and I only liked playing the Necromancer too, so that added to the monotony. I loved grinding away in any FF game to make sure I could easily get through boss fights, (although sometimes I was grinding because of the fact that I was lost and had forgotten what to do). XCOM UFO DEFENSE!!!!! WHOOO!!!

Rewards are also very nice when grinding too. Try and make me your errand boy for bits of cash or upgrades I can buy, (Grand Theft Auto, although I haven't played it in awhile), and I'll think to myself: Mehhh, need something else to do. You tell me I'm going to save your village and paint me a little trophy on the screen and I'll scream:
PREPARE TO BE WATCHED EVIL WET PAINT!!!!! YOU'RE NEXT GLACIER!!!!!

I've got a job in real life, I don't need another one in a game, although I have to admit I had been playing World Of Warcraft for at least 5 years or so. Finally switched to Guild Wars 2 for some new content and "regulated" economy.

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Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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Freemium games basically make the game fun for a while, then it starts getting boring unless you buy "things" to speed it up or whatever. I really hate those games. The only one I've played is Tiny Tower and if you want to complete every achievement in the game you're looking at spending a year playing 12 hours a day or a LOT of money. Way more than any retail game would cost.

When it comes to old fashioned grinding like in Final Fantasy or similar I don't mind it as long as there isn't too much of it.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Grinding is just an easy way to add cheap content. Sure, I could make 5 new dungeons worth of content. Or I can make you kills slimes for a few hours to level up instead.

I appreciate the games that can keep the experience fresh without devolving to mindless grinds. On the other hand, that's understandably difficult and expensive.

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Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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I don't think those two things are necessarily related. You can have a new enemy each time and still have to grind.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Depends on the context. A grind, by definition, is the same thing over and over and over ...

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Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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Yeah, battle over and over again.

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
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No.

Emanresu said:

although sometimes I was grinding because of the fact that I was lost and had forgotten what to do

For me too. Although there are other things like: exploring the dungeon completely, mastering a new attack in an action RPG, getting a rare drop. I personally feel very dissatisfied if a boss of an area is too easy, because I have ground too much. It's like the game is saying: you've wasted so much time that I'll make this easy on you (even though it's supposed to be hard).
The problem sometimes is that enemies are thrown at you whether you like it or not. It is annoying; whether that is bad depends on intentions and effect.
Getting random rewards makes it addictive to fight repeatedly. Such things are: rare enemies, rare drops/steals, rare battle bonuses.
In Tales-of-games you get a "grade" for each battle. It is an extra challenge to get a good score or a large combo. I like those challenges.

Yeah, battle over and over again.

I think the definition of grinding relates to postponing key battles intentionally.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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weapon_S said:

I think the definition of grinding relates to postponing key battles intentionally.

I disagree with that too. If that were the case then a "good" game would just zip you to the end boss right away.

Well 23 had it partially right IMO. Too much grinding is when the developer is trying to stretch out the game. It can be related to lack of graphics/whatever assets but I don't think that's always the case, nor do I think it's impossible to have too many enemy types. I think a game should have some amount of grinding but the amount depends on the game and the person.

Kris Asick
Member #1,424
July 2001

Grinding, for the most part, is always a bad idea. The less grinding you need to perform to win a game, the more fun it will be as a game.

I feel I should point out that some of the "games" out there that have lots of grinding aren't necessarily supposed to gaming experiences but social experiences, like the majority of MMORPGs.

Grinding essentially artificially lengthens the experience of a game by adding arbitrary restrictions as to how and when you can proceed with the game proper.

However, it's also important to note that in order for grinding to be a thing at all, there needs to be a story and an end goal. Without either, the game relies on repeat plays to be entertaining which is not the same as grinding. (It becomes grinding however when you start trying to go for achievements or high scores, but so long as those aren't necessary for enjoying the game, they don't get in the way of the game.)

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Biznaga
Member #3,180
January 2003
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weapon_S said:

I think the definition of grinding relates to postponing key battles intentionally.

I quite understand the same for grinding.

Were I make a game, I'd try to exchange grinding for exploration. At least, that's what appeals to me. You explore new areas (not necessary for the main plot) and grow not through level progression but by item/weapon acquisition.

Maybe even by character development: you get to know them better by triggering side quests that tell additional stories about your characters and lore. So you are encouraged by means of storytelling and not plain leveling. I think there's a similar approach in Mass Effect 2, where your characters acquire an ultimate skill if you progress through his/her dedicated side quest.

Schyfis
Member #9,752
May 2008
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I remember this quote from somewhere.

Quote:

A game should be fun, interesting, or both.

Putting a lot of tedious grinding in your game is going to reduce the fun. So you better compensate by making your game more interesting.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I remember reading a guide to pron books a couple decades ago, it said to look for phrases unnecessarily long, such as "I'm cuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmiiiiinnnnnnnnnggggggggg!" as a filler to substitute for content.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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I wouldn't class Demons's Souls as a grinding game. It's only grinding if you want to get more points not a forced part of the game, which is no different to almost every game in existance.

Neil.
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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I have no complaints about grinding. In fact, I loved FFXI's Summoner Party grinders and took part in a few of them before I stopped playing it due to money issues. I've been feeling nostalgic and thinking about playing my PS1 FF games, CT, and wishing I had a PS2 so I could play the FF's on it. Though, I still have to play FFXIII and FFXIII-2.

Not sure how to classify Demon's Soul though it is probably the most annoying game I've played in regards to leveling up your character to be able to fight the bosses.

Biznaga
Member #3,180
January 2003
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I think grinding may have an added social value on MMO. It's like hanging out with friends. So it can't be that bad ;)

On single player... that's a different story.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I grind on all my games. I grind and level up on Borderlands, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, Final Fantasy games, etc. I actually remember grinding one time on Final Fantasy where I was level 20 or so before I ever went into the first town.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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For me, if I find myself grinding, I assume there must be another way to get there that I haven't found, so I go look for it. It's fine if that way is really really hard to find, as long as I can be confident that it's there. If it's not, then the game is buggy and I'll lose interest soon.

A game with mandatory grinding is not challenging: it just demands that I spend time doing boring repetitive things so I can continue doing what I came for in the first place. Successful grinding does not give me a sense of achievement, because I haven't done anything particularly difficult, I have just sat through a boring lecture; there is nothing satisfying in that, except the relief that it's over, but I don't see why I would willingly subject myself to this when I can have a real gaming experience with so many other games. Mandatory grinding is a flaw at best, an evil marketing plot at worst.

If, however, the grinding is wrapped up in a way that it can be done unattended, then the story changes. For example, if I have a character that I want to develop, and I can tell the game what I want my character to work on while I'm offline, then that's not really grinding - it turns real-world time into an in-game resource, and while this means more in-game time becomes a valuable resource, it also means that the act of using it moves from repetitive clicking to making efficient time management decisions. It binds my character's time, but not my own, because the grinding is equally efficient whether I attend it or not. I might even enjoy playing a game where you could fiddle with a bunch of parameters that determine your character's actions (say, hostility, cautiousness, time spent on various everyday tasks, acceptable trade rates, etc.) and then you'd have to leave him/her alone for a week.

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Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Only with hot girls. Why is leveling up the first thing all you nerds think of? Jeez.

Because of the fact that his question mentioned battle systems and Final Fantasy. I hope hot girls don't come with battle systems like in FF. :P

Biznaga
Member #3,180
January 2003
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I hope hot girls don't come with battle systems like in FF.

Maybe in Japan. It is also said that in order to date a girl in Korea you must first beat her father at StarCraft. :P

If, however, the grinding is wrapped up in a way that it can be done unattended, then the story changes.

Do you mean something like Final Fantasy Tactics (I think) had?

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Because of the fact that his question mentioned battle systems and Final Fantasy.

Are you implying that hot girls aren't a sort of final fantasy for most posters here? :)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

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