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Why I am a Pirate !
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Cool. Let us know when that enters common vernacular. We'll wait.

I'll keep you apprised of the ongoing developments.

Look up theft in a dictionary and you'll find many entries supporting my definition.

Ok:

Quote:

In common usage, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Thomas Fjellstrom I'm afraid Trent Gamblin is right (have no clue why I used your full names). For some reason they have been clumping copyright infringement in with piracy here lately. I thought it was stupid, but I've seen several commercials and news reports where they have been all considered a from of piracy now. Makes a little sense when you stop and think about it. Piracy used to refer to the act of stealing a movie/music/game that you didn't pay for (essentially taking money out of the pockets of the company and artists that made it) and now copyright infringement is close to that too as you are stealing assets from movie/music/game that you didn't ask for or pay to use. Guess they have just decided since they seem similar then they are similar.

Thank God they don't clump more into piracy or theft. You shoot a person and kill them (charged with felony theft/felony piracy -- although you would be paying for it at that point :-/). Rape...sexual theft/sexual piracy? God I hope they don't get that stupid with it.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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Why don't you just admit it. We're all douche bags. If someone calls you a douche bag just accept it as the truth and move on. Ok douchers?

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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==========================
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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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That precedence was set back in 1985. A lot has changed in the pass 27 years and I'm willing to bet if someone takes a case to the Supreme Court it will probably overturn that precedence.

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
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Here they used to talk about 'air-pirates': people who broadcast without a license. They started talking about pirating software, I think. And that usage has spread to all copyright infringement. (Being distributed by the same channels.)
A very minor literature research later... In Dutch 'piracy' implies 'freebooting', which is, except robbing at sea, also living (jollily) with total disregard to rules. So maybe the term implies a sort of hobbyist enthusiasm? Bit farfetched, isn't it? ;D

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Ok, it's 2012, piracy also means copyright infringement these days.

If it does, then the copyright industry's quest has succeeded. By clumping the terms 'theft', 'piracy', and 'copyright infringement' together, the (important) distinction is lost, and it is easier to convince people that copyright infringement is a serious crime (just as serious as stealing and cutting sailors' throats).

You can either join the bandwagon and support this false argument, or you can choose to use more precise language and refuse to accept the equation "copyright infringement === theft".

weapon_S said:

In Dutch 'piracy' implies 'freebooting', which is, except robbing at sea, also living (jollily) with total disregard to rules.

I think the word 'piraterij' has lost this meaning in modern Dutch entirely.

And for the record: I'm not saying copyright infringement is morally or legally OK. It's not. But saying it's the same as theft and sea robbery is not OK either.

and now copyright infringement is close to that too as you are stealing assets from movie/music/game that you didn't ask for or pay to use.

You are not stealing. You are copying without consent, or you are refusing to pay what you're due (depending how you look at it). That's not stealing. If I take the bus without buying a ticket, I'm not stealing. If I refuse to pay a speeding ticket, I'm not stealing. If I sneak into a concert, I'm not stealing. Those are all illegal acts, but they are not the same as stealing.

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Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Quote:

just as serious as cutting sailors' throats

In my mind piracy is associated with loveable Guybrush-esque pirates saying things like "yarrr" and being overall jolly good fellows. Thinking about copyright infringement as piracy actually makes it seem like a lesser crime. "Yarr, shiver me timbers thes're some fine copies of GTA4 jus' wait'n to be plundered!" <- How can you take that as a serious crime? :)

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Dario, how come you were able to search and find that damn photo ? I didn't even remember posting it, lawl !

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
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Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

  • Copyright infringement: copying a work of art or literature, or any other work that is copyrightable, without the copyright holder's permission and beyond fair use

  • Piracy: attacking ships at high sea, in order to steal their cargo, hold passengers and crew ransom, and / or steal the ships themselves, typically involving violent means to achieve these goals

Boring Oldspeak... :P

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

I find it amusing that he doesn't get that he doesn't have 10 possible customers. Those other 5 would never have bothered to buy it regardless. Making them not possible customers.

A customer is one that uses a product, not only one that has paid for a product.

Your argument is circular: a person that uses a product illegally is not a customer (i.e. he has not paid for the product), because he is not a customer (i.e. because he has not paid for the product).

Quote:

Ah well. I remember how futile trying to have a rational discussion with axilmar is... I'ma let you guys finish...

Oh please. Every time we have a discussion, I do my best to present the best arguments I can, and what I always get is that I am not able to hold a rational discussion...well, if you have counter arguments, please present them on the table, and stop throwing dirt. Otherwise, stop.

I hate the "well they weren't a customer in the first place" argument. They obviously did want what was for sale as so were a potential customer. But instead they stole it.

Exactly. It's 100% irrational to say that a user of something is not a customer of that something, since he/she obviously wants to use that something and so he/she does, albeit illegally.

Content producers could be making SO much money off the internet right now, but they seem to think its a threat than a real money making opportunity. It's sad really. Stuck in their old habits, not wanting to change with the times.

Valid point, but it still doesn't make piracy legal.

Nonetheless, calling copyright infringement "theft" or even "piracy" is plain out incorrect

Copyright infringement is theft. Anything that leads to less money in pocket than what one should have is theft.

No money has been lost to the movie industry.

Yes they have. Each time you watch a movie illegally, the company loses $15 or whatever it charges for the viewing.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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axilmar said:

Each time you watch a movie illegally, the company loses $15 or whatever it charges for the viewing.

I'm gonna download a movie and watch it over and over until they go bankrupt!

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Count me in Arthur ^^

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Arvidsson
Member #4,603
May 2004
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axilmar said:

A customer is one that uses a product, not only one that has paid for a product.

This is exactly why it's impossible to argue with you. You make up definitions. A customer is the recipient of something in exchange for something. End of story. Your definition pertains more to consumers. Not the same thing though.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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A poet relates how "piracy" increases his book sales.

video

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Dario, how come you were able to search and find that damn photo ? I didn't even remember posting it, lawl !

I just hacked into your webcam and took a picture of you. :P

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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

I'm gonna download a movie and watch it over and over until they go bankrupt!

If everyone does that, they will. Your argument has merit because some people choose to pay instead of not paying.

This is exactly why it's impossible to argue with you. You make up definitions. A customer is the recipient of something in exchange for something. End of story. Your definition pertains more to consumers. Not the same thing though.

But my definition of 'Customer' is exactly the same as yours. When you download a game and play it, you are the recipient of something, in this particular case, the game. So, you are obliged by the law to give something back. If you don't, you are a thief.

Let's see the Wikipedia definition of customer:

Quote:

A customer (also known as a client, buyer, or purchaser) is the recipient of a good, service, product, or idea, obtained from a seller, vendor, or supplier for a monetary or other valuable consideration.

So, a user of a product that is sold for a price is a customer.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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axilmar said:

Yes they have. Each time you watch a movie illegally, the company loses $15 or whatever it charges for the viewing.

You forgot the part where you explain why your claim is correct.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

You forgot the part where you explain why your claim is correct.

There is no such part; it's self-explainable: each time there is a viewing, $15 must change pockets from the viewer to the author. If there is a viewing without $15 changing pockets, there is a violation.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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You are not stealing. You are copying without consent, or you are refusing to pay what you're due (depending how you look at it). That's not stealing. If I take the bus without buying a ticket, I'm not stealing. If I refuse to pay a speeding ticket, I'm not stealing. If I sneak into a concert, I'm not stealing. Those are all illegal acts, but they are not the same as stealing.

Well speeding ticket and not paying isn't theft but you are jeopardizing your freedom and license privilege. Not paying gives them the right to put out a warrant for your arrest which could result in jail time, fine, and loss of license. The others could have theft charges brought to them.

Legal Definition of Theft:
A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent.

Laymen's definition following it:
theft n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale). In many states, if the value of the property taken is low (for example, less than $500) the crime is "petty theft," but it is "grand theft" for larger amounts, designated misdemeanor, or felony, respectively. Theft is synonymous with "larceny." Although robbery (taking by force), burglary (taken by entering unlawfully), and embezzlement (stealing from an employer) are all commonly thought of as theft, they are distinguished by the means and methods used, and are separately designated as those types of crimes in criminal charges and statutory punishments

Simpler yet:
theft noun burglary, embezzlement, felonious taking, filchery, fraudulent taking, furtum, larceny, looting, misappropriation, peculation, pilferage, pilfering, robbery, stealing, swindling, thievery, wrongful taking
Associated concepts: theft of services

Not paying for a ticket and going to a concert and not paying for a ticket and taking the bus both are 'Theft of services'.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Not paying for a ticket and going to a concert and not paying for a ticket and taking the bus both are 'Theft of services'.

It's also theft of money. Example:

Alice sells a game for $10.
Bob has $50.

Case A: Bob buys the game. Alice has $10, Bob has $40.

Case B: Bob pirates the game. Alice has $0, Bob still has $50.

It's clearly theft. Alice should have $10, but she does not.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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axilmar said:

Case A: Bob buys the game. Alice has $10, Bob has $40.

Case B: Bob pirates the game. Alice has $0, Bob still has $50.

It's clearly theft. Alice should have $10, but she does not.

If Bob decides he isn't willing to pay. Then it's case B. As in vast majority of cases Bob wouldn't buy that game even without pirating it.
I've downloaded Crisis II from thepiratebay. I launched it once, I liked the graphic. Most likely I'll never launch it again, and it'll be either uninstalled or lost when I change a PC/OS.
Did I steal the game from whoever has published it?

Arvidsson
Member #4,603
May 2004
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Wikipedia said:

A customer may or may not also be a consumer, but the two notions are distinct, even though the terms are commonly confused. A customer purchases goods; a consumer uses them

If there is no purchase, no exchange of anything, then the individual is NOT a customer. You may call that person something else, pirate, thief or whatever, but not a customer, not a possible customer nor a lost customer. There is no solid evidence that things that are downloaded would instead be bought if it would be impossible to acquire them otherwise. It might hurt marginally in my opinion, but still where are the statistics? This blog post is pretty interesting, where they actually mention some numbers. It mentions:

Quote:

Anecdotally and from studies by companies like the BSA, it's clear that pirates for the most part have very little income. They are unemployed students, or live in countries with very low per-capita GDP, where the price of a $60 game is more like $1000 (in terms of purchasing power parity and income percentage). When Reflexive games performed a series of experiments with anti-piracy measures, they found that they only made one extra sale for every 1000 pirated copies they blocked [7]. This implies that their 90% piracy statistic caused them to lose less than 1% of their sales.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Quote:

This implies that their 90% piracy statistic caused them to lose less than 1% of their sales.

Yeah, I guess it's something like that. Movies & Music are a little bit worse perhaps.
There's also that heavy confusion that every download from an illegal thought is a lost "customer", which makes me(as mentioned a lot earlier) to be a two lost customers of Starcraft 2, although I actually bought the game yet disliking the Blizzard downloader.



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