Allegro.cc - Online Community

Allegro.cc Forums » Off-Topic Ordeals » skyrim

This thread is locked; no one can reply to it. rss feed Print
skyrim
Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
avatar

Bamm: Have you been training very much on a specific non-combat skill? Enemies will level with you a bit, so if you level to much without actually becoming stronger, you might have a hard time.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
avatar

dragon encounter

Nice idea. I'll use that.

--
Visit CLUBCATT.com for cat shirts, cat mugs, puzzles, art and more <-- coupon code ALLEGRO4LIFE at checkout and get $3 off any order of 3 or more items!

AllegroFlareAllegroFlare DocsAllegroFlare GitHub

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

they've ignored the basics of how to make an RPG

Just to elaborate on this point. This is how RPGs are supposed to work: if you follow the main quest-line, the gradient at which the enemy's strength increases will be steeper than your own, and you will be forced to either level (side-quest), or face encounters that are nearly impossible. At all points in the game, there should be this tension created by the fact that while your progression is noticeable (= satisfaction), the enemy's progression is steeper so you are always facing a challenge (= fun), and moreover everything that contributes towards your strength (every position, item advancement etc.) is meaningful.

This is a basic formula used by nearly every single RPG ever made. Why does Skyrim ignore it? Why does it allow you to change the difficulty in-game? WTF were they thinking?

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

The real issue is as I've said: they've ignored the basics of how to make an RPG.

Just how I feel about it. With the kind of auto-leveling they did there basically is no point in having levels at all. They might just as well have left the player and everything else at level 1 throughout the game. Which completely takes away the game element where you want to continue playing to grow stronger.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
avatar

Elias said:

Just how I feel about it. With the kind of auto-leveling they did there basically is no point in having levels at all. They might just as well have left the player and everything else at level 1 throughout the game. Which completely takes away the game element where you want to continue playing to grow stronger.

The level scaling in skyrim won't let you complete the whole game at lvl 1.

But the Oblivion's one will. :P

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Bamm: Have you been training very much on a specific non-combat skill? Enemies will level with you a bit, so if you level to much without actually becoming stronger, you might have a hard time.

I don't know. I've basically trained on whatever I've found a teacher for as I've encountered them with enough money. If that is the case then it's fucking retarded... If they're going to try to automatically change enemy levels to match your own then they should take into account your actual skill levels, not your overall level. Even better would be if they remained at a static level, growing increasingly stronger as you venture away from your starting point. This way, as James Johr said, there would be those foes that you could not defeat until you progress, whereas people like me don't get fucked over by their progression choices. As for actually leveling up, I've tried to keep it relatively balanced between Magicka, Health, and Stamina. :-/

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
avatar

I thought I read somewhere that when you go to an area, that area is locked to your current level. So if you go away and come back, the monsters would be easy.

:-/

My first dragon fight was...meh. Stand in the fire, chop on its face, run back and heal. Although, it was fun to jump off a ledge and hit with a two-handed great axe (ala Reign of Fire style), which turned out to be the final blow. :D

------------
Solo-Games.org | My Tech Blog: The Digital Helm

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Onewing said:

I thought I read somewhere that when you go to an area, that area is locked to your current level. So if you go away and come back, the monsters would be easy.

:-/

My first dragon fight was...meh. Stand in the fire, chop on its face, run back and heal. Although, it was fun to jump off a ledge and hit with a two-handed great axe (ala Reign of Fire style), which turned out to be the final blow. :D

My first dragon fight was completely disappointing. Firstly, it happened way too early in the game. Dragons are supposed to be these fearsome creatures that all of the NPCs are afraid of, but I'm supposed to go out and fight one while I still struggle to defeat a shop full of people (2 or 3 people)... Worst of all, I we succeeded. I'm sure that the NPCs mostly defeated it by themselves, which makes me feel unnecessary and fake for being hailed for having this special gift revealed at that point in the story. Maybe 5 or 6 regular soldiers managed to basically defeat the dragon by themselves without suffering any casualties. Evidently, this special gift isn't so special after all. >:(

Not knowing what else to do (it's flying high above our heads), I ran up into the tower to fight it from there. Since it was still circling overhead I used my bow and started trying to hit it with arrows. I did manage to hit it a bunch of times, I think, but it was clearly not enough to defeat it. It also almost turned me into BBQ in the process, but fortunately the tower provided sufficient cover to hide and recover. Eventually I looked outside and it was on the ground, looking pretty injured. So I started firing arrows down into it and I think killed it (the NPCs are probably programmed to leave it for the player..). My final blow was pretty lame.

And that pretty much spoiled the grandeur of dragons in this game for me. I'm seriously more afraid of bears and mammoths than of dragons. :-/ The dragons don't even attack you! I noticed one circling overhead just outside of Whiterun so I decided to see how I fared against one all by myself (I fully expected to die). I started trying to shoot it with arrows, but after firing like 30 I had both failed to hit it and failed to provoke an attack. It was literally flying right above me. I am therefore not afraid of them.

Trolls, on the other hand... :o

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
avatar

bamccaig said:

And that pretty much spoiled the grandeur

Which reminds me of Oblivion.

NPC: "Aaaah! Gates to hell have opened near our city! We're all gonna die! Aaah!"
<player walks into city>
NPC: "That silly orc is an awfully precarious fella".

The lack of awareness of what is going on from NPCs destroys the immersion of the game. The lack of proper scalability (which leads to the feeling of both accomplishment and epic-ness) destroys the immersion of the game. :-/

------------
Solo-Games.org | My Tech Blog: The Digital Helm

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
avatar

bamccaig said:

I'm seriously more afraid of bears and mammoths than of dragons. :-/

:) reminds me of Gothic 3 where I'm afraid of any suspicious piece of vegetation in the forest in case a boar is hiding there :-/

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

I just completed the main quest line. The game feels like it didn't even get started. I'm still using a weapon I got 1 hour into starting the game, and the same 3 spells I started with. I've not had to buy a single item in the game, and I'm yet to fight an encounter that wasn't trivially easy to win by kiting.

The final boss fight would have been extremely impressive if I hadn't fought the identical dragon fight about 10 times already.

It's almost criminal that a game which has so much attention to detail in some places was so poorly put together as an actual playable RPG.

Admittedly I did enjoy it, but while the quality of the animation and voice acting was exceptional, as an all-round game it was piss-poor. But hey, it was better than I was expecting.

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
avatar

bamccaig said:

The dragons don't even attack you! ... I started trying to shoot it with arrows, but after firing like 30 I had both failed to hit it and failed to provoke an attack.

They apparently need a clear area to land. I don't know about engaging from above though.

Onewing said:

The lack of awareness of what is going on from NPCs destroys the immersion of the game.

Agreed here. On the vampire quest, I discovered that

Alva was a vampire and I got into her house and killed her guard. I also told the Jarl about her and I think I showed her her journal, from her coffin, providing proof. I then see Alva wandering back into town and watched to see what the guards would do. They completely ignore her. I then go back to her house and she walks in... completely ignoring the dead body on the ground as she walks by it. I then reload the game and this time, I must have been in the way as she walked a different way and she discovered the body! She makes some "oh no! what happened?" comment and then walks away, having instantly forgotten about it. Probably didn't bother her much that my sword was dripping blood as I was standing by the body. :-/

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

It seems Skyrim contains all the land of the Elder Scrolls myth, including all areas of previous games, although they are not explorable unless noclip is engaged. Personally, I do not like RPGs, but it seems interesting just to explore the huge area.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
avatar

axilmar said:

Personally, I do not like RPGs, but it seems interesting just to explore the huge area.

Actually I'd call the game more of a hiking sim than an RPG. :P

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Dario ff said:

Actually I'd call the game more of a hiking sim than an RPG.

Just walking around in nature is very relaxing. Unfortunately, I cannot do it whenever I wish, and so games such a Skyrim offer such a possibility.

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
avatar

I'm more or less done with Skyrim. Just bought Arkham City this morning. There goes my imaginary productivity this weekend.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

Well if it is imaginary then you will still be productive just in beating AC.

Anomie
Member #9,403
January 2008
avatar

Personally, I was horrified by the interface after spending five minutes trying to get my mouse to do things in the character creation menu (I assumed something was broken, some part of installation must have failed). It took me probably two or three days to get over it and start enjoying the experience. :-/ It's still irritating.

This is a basic formula used by nearly every single RPG ever made.

That could be a problem in and of itself, depending on where you're sitting.

Leveling beyond enemies as motivation for progress isn't such a compelling mechanic that I miss it. And like James says, it's been the de facto standard for thirty or forty years -- I'd encourage anyone to mix it up. I'm enjoying the game as a story; it's captivating just to explore the lore, the situations that play out, and the capabilities of your avatar. Fighting is a secondary priority that facilitates actual progression through interesting game content. The only reason I'm concerned with leveling at all is because I'm interested in seeing what new spells I can learn, or to reduce time spent grinding on generic thugs in a generic dungeon (so that I can skip ahead to the interesting thugs in the interesting dungeon ;D).

It's similar to Portal 2 in that respect. My friends hated it because they didn't spend as much time stuck on puzzles as they did in Portal (concerned with the challenge of solving puzzles). Others enjoyed it as a delightful piece of work, despite the hand-holding (concerned with the game content). If you go into Skyrim looking to crack some heads and max out some stats, you probably won't be very happy with it.

I just started my second character a couple days ago and I'm happy to report a couple things:

  • The game is still fun to explore and progress through.

  • Playing as a different type of character is unique and interesting, something I was longing for in Oblivion and Fallout 3.

______________
I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees. I speak for the trees for the trees have no tongues.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Anomie said:

so that I can skip ahead to the interesting thugs in the interesting dungeon

There is no grinding, there are no interesting thugs, and there are no interesting dungeons. You can pretty much beat any boss/mob/dungeon with your opening items and spells - at least, everything that is part of the main quest line.

In the last "dungeon" prior to the final boss, you'll open chests which contain the exact same items and gold quantity as the very first chest you ever open in the game.

Nothing is fun because it's all pointless. Why bother to buy better items or learn new spells when all it's going to do is make the fights even easier (and therefore less fun!). There is no progression - you just go wherever you like and do whatever you want.

Like I've already said, the game has some truly fantastic features, but falls on its face because some aspects are incredibly poorly executed, or just terrible design decisions.

Anomie
Member #9,403
January 2008
avatar

there are no interesting thugs, and there are no interesting dungeons.

Aw, what? :( There are lots of interesting thugs and dungeons!

Quote:

You can pretty much beat any boss/mob/dungeon with your opening items and spells

Though not by that metric, as I said before.

Quote:

In the last "dungeon" prior to the final boss, you'll open chests which contain the exact same items and gold quantity as the very first chest you ever open in the game.

This probably has something to do with you never 'stopping to smell the roses'. I've been meandering from side quest to side quest and loot is definitely getting more and more interesting, as are the people I'm coming across and the stories I'm becoming involved in.

Quote:

Nothing is fun because it's all pointless.

It's a video game, you invent the 'point'. The one you chose is no fun. :P

Quote:

Why bother to buy better items or learn new spells when all it's going to do is make the fights even easier.

I wouldn't bother, if my main concern was the difficulty of fighting.

Quote:

There is no progression - you just go wherever you like and do whatever you want.

Going places and doing things is my kind of progression. ;)

______________
I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees. I speak for the trees for the trees have no tongues.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

Anomie said:

It's a video game, you invent the 'point'.

Games generally have structured objectives. If there's no point then it's a toy, not a game. :)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

I still don't know what people are talking about with things being too easy. :-/ That's definitely not my experience. They're easy adjacent at times because the AI is usually pretty dumb, but some of the people and many of the creatures are actually very difficult to defeat (i.e., I don't have a chance)... Perhaps the main quest line is really easy. For me, I accept every side quest I encounter and have like 20 on the go. I always feel like I should do the side quests before the main quests... The side quests that I'm trying to do are no easy task, at least not for my character. :-/

Anomie
Member #9,403
January 2008
avatar

Games generally have structured objectives. If there's no point then it's a toy, not a game.

Oh, I was thinking real-world 'point'. :-X I have a friend who often, after I pitch a game idea, says "so what's the point?" (meaning real-world purpose) To which I can only reply "to have fun".

There are clearly structured objectives: quest lines. That's what guides me from thing to thing. The stories and situations are what keeps me playing.

______________
I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees. I speak for the trees for the trees have no tongues.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Games generally have structured objectives. If there's no point then it's a toy, not a game.

Exactly. Moving chess pieces randomly around a board is not fun.

Freedom loses its novelty very quickly, and lasting enjoyment really requires boundaries to push against and challenge.

bamccaig said:

I still don't know what people are talking about with things being too easy. That's definitely not my experience.

The gameplay is essentially the same as WoW, so I guess I have an unfair advantage in that I used to play WoW arenas competitively. I'd bet money on any half-decent WoW arena player being able to complete any part of the main quest line with the starting items/spells without any real practice. The only difference is that it takes about 1/100th the skill level that WoW does (WoW requires you to lean 30+ keybindings to play a class properly, Skyrim takes learning 2). :P



Go to: