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Is A4 abandoned?
AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
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What the Fuck!, I should have never made that "joke".

Damn Trent, you don't think it twice when you have to make a bad reply, I have see with Thomas and now with Edgar... What's your problem, even if you don't want it to do it, you could be more political, and say something like "I'm taking note" or I don't know "We will discuses it in the future". When I also put the problem with fonts you just get mad too, "that is not going to happen" I won't forget that phrase.

If you don't have the time, if you aren't motivated or anything just say it, but not pretend that everybody opinions or suggestions are bad.

It seems like you own this library, and if others want to use it, it's fine, but don't make suggestion because until I need the features for my own projects nothing is going to happen.

I know we could do thing for ourself for that reason this is a free library but damn, take it easy, I bet if someone see ones of the Allegro developers agree with a monolith version, you'll see candidates to make it. But you can't say I don't like that shit, but if you want to do it go ahead this is a free library I don't have the time... That would unmotivate anybody...

Things don't get done because you have a good idea.Regarding documentation, good programmers are not necessarily good technical writers.

Things don't get done because you have a good idea, that's true, but it may with a good answer from the main developers don't you think?.

Why to be so rude with people we're talking almost all days?.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Damn Trent, you don't think it twice when you have to make a bad reply, I have see with Thomas and now with Edgar...

Well, anyone who mentions C++ or SFML in the Allegro Development forum deserves to be called a troll :)

Anyway, didn't read all of the thread, just had to post here so my signature appears :)

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

@Trent and other developers:
Thank you very much for creating a great library in your spare time! :)

By the way, I do think the documentation is quite good, as are the examples. Plus, you can always refer to the sources if something might still be unclear. :)

While I think that considering reasonable, polite feedback from users is not a bad thing, I do think that the "totally unendurable labour" of linking some more files is no reason to redesign. ::)

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Personally, I find A5 extremely well designed. In the scale 0 to 100, A5 gets a 95. The documentation is excellent, the API is excellent...so, thank you A5 developers for giving us such a great API.

I don't see how the build system is a problem, since monolithic libraries are available anyway.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Because it makes compiling from the command line a major pain in the ass. With A4 all I have to remember is one library, and with A5 I have to remember 10.

SFML is modular too. So I don't think that'll be an option for you.

Also Allegro 4 is NOT a single library. The png, ogg, OpenAL and OpenGL support are all in separate libraries, the same as Allegro 5. And Allegro 4 doesn't even have D3D support.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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"Keep it simple"?
Allegro 5 is keeping it simple, it is still a low level library right?

Using a shovel, axe and wheelbarrow is keeping it simple. Making a big machine would make the end users experience of digging holes easier, but it's not keeping it simple.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I just can't stand to work on the A4 codebase anymore. I think Elias, Evert and Peter would agree.

Hell yes.
I'll go a step further: I prefer upgrading my projects to A5 to continuing to use A4. Not saying I didn't have a great deal of fun with A4 back in the day, and likewise not saying that I'm so at home with A5's API that I don't have the documentation and examples open in the background when I'm writing my game, but when I look at the end result the organisation of the code and the flow of the program is just much cleaner.
I think a large part of that is the event system.

And the OS X implementation is left undone because I don't have a system to work on and I don't have any experience with OS X. However, I don't expect that somebody else should just drop what they are doing and write it just because somebody should, and after all, I put in the time, so somebody else needs to put in equal time.

And am I somehow lazy or selfish because I took the time to implement something but didn't provide an OS X port or documentation to your satisfaction?

To add on to that, we did discuss on the mailing list what would be required for the OS X implementation and how it could be done. That should be enough for me (or anyone else, really) to get it to work, if and when I/someone gets round to doing it.

axilmar said:

The documentation is excellent

Thanks for saying so, I don't personally know that I really agree. I think the documentation is passable but could be a lot better.
Of course, I don't actually have time to do much about it so I don't complain too much.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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One thing I wish was a feature is a way to load a sample, and wait until it is done playing, or at least wait for an event. I had the same issue with A4 as well. Something to put on 5.1's back burner for now.

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I could swear there was supposed to be an event to tell when a sample/stream was finished. Looks like no though.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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Yea, only thing I found was a stream needed it's buffer to be filled so it can play smoothly.

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I could swear there was supposed to be an event to tell when a sample/stream was finished. Looks like no though.

For streams created with al_load_audio_stream there is ALLEGRO_EVENT_AUDIO_STREAM_FINISHED.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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Thing is, does the event get triggered when the buffer needs to be filled (meaning for a long enough file, it can be triggered almost 100 times, if not more) or is it just once?

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Elias said:

Well, anyone who mentions C++ or SFML in the Allegro Development forum deserves to be called a troll

Maybe the developers should take that as a hint that there is more than one way to do the same thing and if people get tired of developers who don't give a shit about their users then maybe they'll start looking somewhere else. For quite some time now, the Allegro Development forum has been a place where most concerns are ignored or brushed off. If you all feel offended by people considering using a different library due to the major lack of consideration for user issues then I feel sorry for you.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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I don't think he meant it seriously, Edgar.

I took it more as a light-hearted "sacrilege!! :o" joke.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Maybe the developers should take that as a hint that there is more than one way to do the same thing and if people get tired of developers who don't give a shit about their users then maybe they'll start looking somewhere else. For quite some time now, the Allegro Development forum has been a place where most concerns are ignored or brushed off. If you all feel offended by people considering using a different library due to the major lack of consideration for user issues then I feel sorry for you.

Wait, wait, you're pluralizing again ...

Quote:

Maybe the developers should take that as a hint that there is more than one way to do the same thing and if I get tired of developers who don't give a shit about me then maybe I'll start looking somewhere else. For quite some time now, the Allegro Development forum has been a place where my concerns are ignored or brushed off. If you all feel offended by me considering using a different library due to the major lack of consideration for my issues then I feel sorry for you.

Edited for accuracy. Not to sound like a broken record, but features flow from demand. If there's no feature, chances are there's not much demand. To pretend otherwise is highly dishonest.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Wait, wait, you're pluralizing again ...

Really?
http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/607851 0 replies
http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/607728 0 replies
http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/607518 0 replies
http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/607523 0 replies

That's just in the last two months. It really takes that much effort to say "we don't have time for this", or "that's not a priority", or "if you want it fixed do it yourself"?

Thomas Harte gave up on Allegro and switched to SDL for pretty much the same reasons I'm considering using something else, and losing him was a bad loss to the Allegro community. Now consider all the people who have left Allegro silently because their issues weren't addressed or even considered, and you have 'plural' amounts of people with the same considerations.

23yrold3yrold said:

Edited for accuracy. Not to sound like a broken record, but features flow from demand. If there's no feature, chances are there's not much demand. To pretend otherwise is highly dishonest.

The more accurate statement there is if there's no feature it's because the devs didn't want it themselves, not necessarily because there's no demand for it. Get your head out of the sand.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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I vote for changing the license to zlib with no Edgar Reynaldo exception. He obviously doesn't appreciate the hard work some people put into Allegro. And he hurt my feelings :(.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

That's just in the last two months. It really takes that much effort to say "we don't have time for this", or "that's not a priority", or "if you want it fixed do it yourself"?

What does this have to do with you be alone in your request for this thing? Besides, the devs are not tech support. Some questions go unanswered. This is still one of the liveliest forums for a given programming library that I know of, with the exception of Microsoft's stuff. Don't see your point here.

REVISION: All of those people also appear to be singular in their requests, if that's what they are. If 90% of the user base saw value in a feature, it would be in there. Either because a current developer did it, or someone who wanted it enough to man up did it.

Quote:

The more accurate statement there is if there's no feature it's because the devs didn't want it themselves, not necessarily because there's no demand for it.

If the devs wanted a feature for themselves, I imagine they'd code it ... for themselves. I have a whole ton of classes and code for features and helper functions to extend Allegro or make it more to my liking. I don't submit it for use in the main library. Why would they? Maybe they just feel this is the best design given the options? Did that ever occur to you, especially when some of those reasons seem to have already been given?

Quote:

Get your head out of the sand.

Your head is in something too; might want to get it out before it smells ...

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Edgar, you never cease to make me chuckle. And I'm suffering from acute tonsillitis at the moment, so that's much appreciated. 8-)

Edgar, you mentioned somewhere in this thread that you've contributed to the Allegro library. Guess what? That makes you an Allegro developer! There's no membership. There's no club card. There's just people submitting code.

So I am very ashamed and disappointed that you, as one of the developers, did not take the time to respond to any of those posts you linked. You are letting your users down.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

I vote for changing the license to zlib with no Edgar Reynaldo exception. He obviously doesn't appreciate the hard work some people put into Allegro. And he hurt my feelings

I hurt your feelings? You're the one who singled me out as a lazy whiner when I never even brought up a monolith build in the first place. And is it really that untrue that many peoples concerns in the Allegro Development forum go unnoticed?

What does this have to do with you be alone in your request for this thing?

I didn't even request it here! All it ever was was a suggestion to make things easier anyway. It's amazing how much people will have a hissy fit over something as small and innocent as a suggestion.

23yrold3yrold said:

If the devs wanted a feature for themselves, I imagine they'd code it ... for themselves.

Thank you Captain Obvious! That's what I said anyway.

Does it really make sense to completely ignore and alienate your users? If no one uses your library, then all the time you put into writing it was for nothing.

23yrold3yrold said:

I have a whole ton of classes and code for features and helper functions to extend Allegro or make it more to my liking. I don't submit it for use in the main library.

Why not submit it if it really is that useful?

23yrold3yrold said:

Your head is in something too; might want to get it out before it smells ...

Check again. You were looking in a mirror and confused me for yourself. I didn't even bring this shit up! I never made any demands, all I ever did was defend my opinion, but you have to go and have a hissy sissy fit over it.

@Matthew
I'd hardly consider myself an Allegro developer. I'm a contributor sure, but I don't have write access to the repo and everything I submit has to be accepted first. If it was to do with A5, no I didn't reply to it, because I don't have time to work on my projects, tweak A4, and familiarize myself with the A5 codebase at the same time. My understanding of the A4 system is basic at best so I can't help everyone who needs it, but I usually do if I can.

Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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Peter Wang was right! :-*

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____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I didn't even request it here!

Who said you did?

Quote:

Does it really make sense to completely ignore and alienate your users? If no one uses your library, then all the time you put into writing it was for nothing.

Stop pluralizing; it's dishonest. And some users will always go unsatisfied, partly because you can't please everyone, partly because some ideas are either dumb or not worth the effort/tradeoff and partly because some things are higher priority. The nature of software development.

Quote:

Why not submit it if it really is that useful?

Because it goes against the spirit of the library, or is only useful to me because I designed it for myself.

Quote:

I never made any demands, all I ever did was defend my opinion, but you have to go and have a hissy sissy fit over it.

I honestly don't even have a dog in this fight; the time it's taken me to participate in this discussion is several time how long I will spent typing out the library to link to when I make a new project over the course of my entire life. I said this was hilarious, and I meant it. ;D And yes, you sound demanding, even if you can't say you explicitly demanded it in exactly those words. Honestly, if you want to use the SFML, go nuts. No one will care that you switched to it any more than anyone there would care if someone switched to Allegro. ::)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Who said you did?

You did. You're the one going on about how I'm making demands when I never made any. Take your delusions somewhere else. :P

23yrold3yrold said:

Stop pluralizing; it's dishonest.

If I'm not the only one affected by it, then it's not dishonest to speak plurally. ::)

23yrold3yrold said:

And yes, you sound demanding, even if you can't say you explicitly demanded it in exactly those words.

Okay, so I'm not demanding, but I am. That makes a lot of sense buddy. ;)

23yrold3yrold said:

I honestly don't even have a dog in this fight; the time it's taken me to participate in this discussion is several time how long I will spent typing out the library to link to when I make a new project over the course of my entire life.

The more projects you make, the more time and effort it takes to set up each one. I tend to make frequent test projects and so it takes more effort for me. I can do without it, and all I ever said was that it would be a nice thing to have. So when you're done having your period, let me know, and then maybe this could be a real discussion again. :-X

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Okay, so I'm not demanding, but I am. That makes a lot of sense buddy.

You don't have to use the word "demand" to be demanding.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

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