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Forced into switching to Linux
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Dude we know you like AmigaOS and you love the world of yesterday, but

I've never even seen an Amiga! >:(

If you want a modern example of stupidity getting in the way of using code the way you want, look at the Intel ICC compiler. If the code it produces is running on a CPU that doesn't have the 'GenuineIntel' string from CPUID, it chooses the worst possible algorithms it has in its libraries. Intel says it's supposed to ensure correctness, but everyone knows it's to make non-Intel chips look bad.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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Remember the GIF image format debacle?

What does this discussion have to do with the broken patent system of the US?
I think software patents is a fundamentally flawed concept (and the US implementation of it even more so), and certainly not a requirement for making money of closed (or open) source software.

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How about MS and DOS? Or Windows refusing to run if it was DR. DOS? Or IBM computers refusing to run if it wasn't PC-DOS?

It's a sleezy tactic, sure. But they should be able to decide what to do with their software, and the customers should choose not to accept it (by not buying it).

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

While money was spent on it, that money is amortized over the number of units sold. The additional cost of distributing the program on CD-ROM might be 50 cents for the disk and another 1.00 for the box and styrofoam, with 1.00 for shipping to the store warehouses. If it's distributed on-line, call it 0.10 cents for distribution. If you divide the development cost over 100000 units it's pretty small compared to the prices normally charged for a copy of software. At least they're not charging five or six hundred dollars per copy like they did in the '80's.

True, but it is only the author of said product that has the right to set the product's price. If you don't like the price, don't buy the product. You certainly do not have the right to pirate it.

van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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Remember the GIF image format debacle?

Not this again

{"name":"RYJiT.gif","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/9\/f9642a3f5700ef4874bf3f9aa1257305.gif","w":320,"h":240,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/9\/f9642a3f5700ef4874bf3f9aa1257305"}RYJiT.gif

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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axilmar said:

You certainly do not have the right to pirate it.

I didn't pirate Linux. ::) Did you pirate Windows? I'd bet money yves did.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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^it's ok if you use AmigaOS as your main desktop, we understand you're old school

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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The GPL is effectively about user freedom. It basically states that the freedom of many is more important than the freedom of few. Its purpose is preserving and enforcing the freedom of the users. Those not intending to profit from their software can release it using the GPL and trust that their works will continue to be free for modification and redistribution, regardless of whether or not they're integrated into some other software. It basically prevents somebody from taking your hard work, enhancing it ever so slightly, and charging the world for the product as a whole, despite you doing most of the work.

The LGPL is basically the same thing, except that it allows for the software to be contained as a separate module, and linked separately. This way you can freely use it without restrictions to your own software. It effectively solves the "problem" being discussed about the GPL. Not all software is a good candidate for that though.

Basically it's bullshit for commercial developers to want to use free software and then turn around and charge unreasonable licensing fees for the derivative. Don't get me wrong: I certainly want commercial developers to use open source software. They should just contribute back to the open source world instead of exploiting it. If that open source software wasn't available then each of those libraries and programs that save the day would cost your company another licensing fee. There would be plenty of half-assed implementations and you'd have no way of knowing which worked and which didn't until you had already coughed up the annual budget. It adds up very quickly. It's expensive to use broken software that you aren't allowed to fix. :(

As programmers, you need to get paid for your work. Your 9-5 or whatever you work. However, you don't need to get paid every time somebody runs your damn program. If the software has a productive purpose then somebody is going to be willing to fund it. After they've done so there's no good reason to keep charging for it (except for greed). For now the entire software industry is built on greed though. I think the GPL is a very good way to force the greedy shops to feed on their own kind.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

bamccaig said:

The GPL is effectively about user freedom. It basically states that the freedom of many is more important than the freedom of few. Its purpose is preserving and enforcing the freedom of the users. Those not intending to profit from their software can release it using the GPL and trust that their works will continue to be free for modification and redistribution, regardless of whether or not they're integrated into some other software. It basically prevents somebody from taking your hard work, enhancing it ever so slightly, and charging the world for the product as a whole, despite you doing most of the work.

I do not see how this freedom would not be achieved if GPL was not enforced on derivative works, provided that the GPL part is explicitly stated in the program's license. For example, I could make a closed source application which I could sell for profit, but I would have to explicitly mention the GPL parts I used. This does not harm the freedom of others, but it does also not harm the freedom of me.

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charge unreasonable licensing fees for the derivative.

Why not let the market decide that?

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They should just contribute back to the open source world instead of exploiting it.

Since when is using something offered for free exploitation? the word 'offer' means the software is voluntarily given away. There is no exploitation.

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If that open source software wasn't available then each of those libraries and programs that save the day would cost your company another licensing fee. There would be plenty of half-assed implementations and you'd have no way of knowing which worked and which didn't until you had already coughed up the annual budget. It adds up very quickly. It's expensive to use broken software that you aren't allowed to fix.

There are other solutions: software reviews, try-before-you-buy, demos etc.

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However, you don't need to get paid every time somebody runs your damn program.

Why not? if I have made something that is nice to use and everybody wants to use it, then why not?

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For now the entire software industry is built on greed though.

Greed is not necessarily bad. It may be motivating and result in good things.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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GPL only makes sense if everybody is using it for everything. And if the goal of GPL'ers is to take over the world, they are sadly delusional. If Allegro were GPL, the only difference would be that fewer people would use it.

The main perspective of people who love the GPL is:

If you use my puny GPL software and make a profit, I feel like I've been taken advantage of. Why? Well, if you didn't use it, then I'd have nothing. If you did use it, then I'd still have nothing. But I judge my happiness based on how much I have relative to you. If we both have nothing, I am happy. If you have more than me, I am not.

Now, I have nothing against people who use the GPL. It's their right. And in fact, for most applications it doesn't really matter much at all. I can use your GPL program without ever touching the source code and contaminating my own.

But the motivation of using GPL for a library is just one of selfishness and elitism. If you don't belong to my GPL open source club, then you cannot use it. >:(

Again, the author has every right to say that, but to pretend it's for the greater good... well, that's just pathetic, and I feel a little bit sorry for somebody who has wasted his own time developing software with such misguided intentions.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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customers should choose not to accept it (by not buying it)

Not this again. It requires non-ignorant customer base. Without it, you can do whatever evil you want and cover it up with marketing.

Anyway, I'm completely unsympathetic with anyone who wants to release their software closed source. I've been fighting with getting older games to work on WinXP the past few weeks, and I had to use other people's fixes that required crafted dlls, binary patching, compatibility settings etc etc. None of that would have been an issue if the games had been open source (e.g. Doom, Quake, Descent are, and they run flawslessly on modern systems). As a user I feel shafted by the greedy developers that chose to close their sources indefinitely. GPL is about serving the user, and if you truly care about the user, that is the license to use.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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SiegeLord said:

Anyway, I'm completely unsympathetic with anyone who wants to release their software closed source. I've been fighting with getting older games to work on WinXP the past few weeks, and I had to use other people's fixes that required crafted dlls, binary patching, compatibility settings etc etc. None of that would have been an issue if the games had been open source (e.g. Doom, Quake, Descent are, and they run flawslessly on modern systems). As a user I feel shafted by the greedy developers that chose to close their sources indefinitely. GPL is about serving the user, and if you truly care about the user, that is the license to use.

You could've just used DosBox or even install VMware to run an older OS if you want to play classic games

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Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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SiegeLord said:

Doom, Quake, Descent

None of those were open source while they were actual products on a market.

I certainly agree that it is, in general, in the developers best interest to release old titles for free (and optionally with source, though if they can make it work on modern systems without releasing sources, I rather have that - it usually makes for a less painful installation and use).

However, it's not the developers that decide these things. It's typically the publisher that sits on the rights, and I've yet seen a smart publisher.

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It requires non-ignorant customer base

There will always be a scale on the level of ignorance in customers that ranges from experts to newly-born. It's up to them to learn, or accept that they might have to pay a bit extra. Most people go with the latter, since no person can be an expert in every area. What does that have to do with GPL?

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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You could've just used DosBox or even install VMware to run an older OS if you want to play classic games

These games are neither dos based, nor do they run without 3D acceleration.

EDIT:

None of those were open source while they were actual products on a market.

It was a gamble on the user's part to buy these closed source games that paid off.

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I certainly agree that it is, in general, in the developers best interest to release old titles for free

In what way? Developers need to waste time removing proprietary code from it at the very least. Releasing the source after the fact does not help the original developers whatsoever (well, maybe except goodwill or something); only the users benefit.

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What does that have to do with GPL?

Ignorance with respect to the long term dangers of closed source software (e.g. compatibility issues with newer systems).

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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SiegeLord said:

These games are neither dos based, nor do they run without 3D acceleration.

VMware Workstation 7 supports 3D acceleration, my desktop runs Linux, but I still play games in a VM that runs Windows XP

http://www.vmware.com/products/workstation/new.html

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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VMware Workstation 7 supports 3D acceleration, my desktop runs Linux, but I still play games in a VM that runs Windows XP

Even if that does work, that means in principle shelling out $180... something I wouldn't have to do if the game was OSS.

Note that I haven't even started talking about buggy software that I can't even attempt to fix because I have no access to its source.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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SiegeLord said:

Even if that does work, that means in principle shelling out $180... something I wouldn't have to do if the game was OSS.

going by principle wont get you far in life

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Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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SiegeLord said:

It was a gamble on the user's part to buy these closed source games that paid off.

Do you mean that it's a gamble to buy a closed source product, period? Eg it might have been shit? Yes. That's true for any product that you buy, closed source or not. Having access to the source does not mean it's economical, effective or possible to "fix" the game/software yourself. Especially not for 99% of the users out there.

And for games - if you modify it, you're not really playing THAT game any more. Artistic vision and what-not.

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In what way? Developers need to waste time removing proprietary code from it at the very least. Releasing the source after the fact does not help the original developers whatsoever (well, maybe except goodwill or something); only the users benefit.

If it is possible with a minimum of work (such as if they don't need to re-factor the code too much), it's a significant boost to their brand, and a good way to advertise a future game.

However, I suspect it will happen less now. It seems that there is indeed a good market for old games made to work on new systems (such as www.gog.com, which sells great games at really reasonable prices).

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Do you mean that it's a gamble to buy a closed source product, period?

Not quite. It's a gamble in the sense that they released the source when they felt unable to continue development. Sure, if they continue development (or someone else does, like gog.com) then in principle it's ok. A bug free software does not have the same need to be open source as a buggy software does.

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Having access to the source does not mean it's economical, effective or possible to "fix" the game/software yourself. Especially not for 99% of the users out there.

It doesn't need to be. The 1% for whom it is economical etc will release their fixes for the other 99%. Perhaps that 1% can't fix all the bugs, but some other 1% can fix the remainder. This has happened with the aforementioned games. I wouldn't know where to begin in getting the Doom or Descent engines to run on modern systems, yet someone did and now everyone benefits.

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And for games - if you modify it, you're not really playing THAT game any more. Artistic vision and what-not.

That's unrelated to the issue of getting it to run in the first place. You can already screw up the artistic vision via mods.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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SiegeLord said:

VMware Workstation 7 supports 3D acceleration, my desktop runs Linux, but I still play games in a VM that runs Windows XP

Even if that does work, that means in principle shelling out $180...

VMWare Player is free. All you need is downloading the vm from somewhere else, or use some free tool to create the vm, like this one.

Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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I can't respond to every little statement here, but some of them are horribly wrong. As I already said, there is a distinction between content and software tools. We are not talking about copying movies, games or music - or art in general, that's a whole different thing. It's something you enjoy rather than use and there are different licensing models for that.

Also, a software product is certainly not an item, although someone here stated otherwise. How can you test it? Well, throw it against the wall, if it breaks it was an item. Your computer is an item, but software is not. Problems arise when people start trying to draw sharp lines between "software items" (the word is wrong, but I could not tell how to explain that different). At which point is a software a derivative of another software? If you link to it statically, is it then part of your software? What if you link it dynamically? What if it calls another program and makes use of the results, etc. etc. Although we can give more or less precise answers to these questions we always encounter problems that cannot be answered clearly, even our laws sometimes seem to be uncertain over that. This indicates that there is a problem with the abstraction of software as a "virtual item". Putting efforts/time/money/whatever into something does not make it an item automatically. I have put lots of efforts, time and money into my relationship with my girlfriend and there is no item.

Also, someone here mentioned that the GPL is an expression of l33tness, which is totally dumb. The GPL is a symbolically reached-out hand for freedom, and absolutely noone is forced to enter the deal. If someone grants you freedom to use his work, I think its not even selfish, eliteness, viral or restrictive to expect that someone grants you freedom to use his improvements on your work. There is a important saying about that: "Wisdom is one of the few things that multiplies when you divide it." ("dividing" is the same word like "sharing" in German)

So in the end it's not even a question what's technically better, although I often pull jokes about it or troll just for fun, making fun of "computer experts".

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I can't respond to every little statement here, but some of them are horribly wrong

Those statements would be yours. :-[

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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I think its not even selfish, eliteness, viral or restrictive to expect that someone grants you freedom to use his improvements on your work.

But expect != force.

I really hate when people advertise GPL talking about freedom, when it's the most restrictive open source license, and compare it against close source, when the real useful comparison would be against other open source licenses.

I've used GPL in the past, but now I really think other open source licenses are more appropriate for most cases, and stay away from GPL libraries because I don't want to be forced to license anything under GPL/LGPL[1] (even if I'm planning to open source it).

References

  1. I don't like LGPL either, because this one forces me to dynamic link (this is specially bad for small programs I desire to static link everything so I can distribute a stand-alone exe).
Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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bamccaig said:

Those not intending to profit from their software can release it using the GPL and trust that their works will continue to be free for modification and redistribution, regardless of whether or not they're integrated into some other software. It basically prevents somebody from taking your hard work, enhancing it ever so slightly, and charging the world for the product as a whole, despite you doing most of the work.

The GPL doesn't do that. In fact, the GPL explicitly allows anyone to take your work, not change it at all (or change it however they like), and then charging the world for the product as a whole.

The condition imposed by the GPL is that if you do sell the product, then you must also grant the purchaser the right to modify and distribute the product (under the same GPL terms).

The GPL isn't about preventing people from charging money. It's about preventing people from turning open-source software into closed source software.

...

In any case, for my own purposes, I value the freedom to be able to choose and change the licence of the software I write. So even if I intend to release software under the GPL, I still wouldn't use GPL components, for fear that I'd lose my freedom.

I have used the GPL licence a couple of times, and I expect I'll use it again in the future; but I see it as a way of protecting my rights rather than protecting the freedom granted by open source software.

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furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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I second Oscar. Things being licensed under the GPL have caused me some headaches when developing for the Wii. I'd be forced to use GPL whether they released a library GPL or LGPL. There is no way to dynamic link as of yet.

I've had to not use certain things just because. Its dumb. :-[

Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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Don't mix up two words:

  • power

  • freedom

Freedom is not to choose any license you want when using foreign code. If you think that you have a naive definition of freedom. Freedom does not mean you can do whatever you want, it means you can do whatever you want as long as you respect the freedom of others. You seem to be forgetting the second part all the time. If you can't take GPL code and put your own code under the GPL, then I would ask: What is restricting you to do that?

furinkan said:

I've had to not use certain things just because. Its dumb. :-[

You think it's dumb, but basically you wanted to take away the freedom of others and the mechanism seemed to work here, because you could not use it. What's wrong with it?



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