Allegro.cc - Online Community

Allegro.cc Forums » Off-Topic Ordeals » Firesheep

This thread is locked; no one can reply to it. rss feed Print
 1   2   3 
Firesheep
BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
avatar

bamccaig said:

It matters more on sites like Facebook and Twitter and PayPal where you have a lot of your information

Wait... PayPal? It's impossible to do anything on there without HTTPS, just like most other financial sites who are even remotely intelligent.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

BAF said:

Wait... PayPal? It's impossible to do anything on there without HTTPS, just like most other financial sites who are even remotely intelligent.

That's what I had assumed... It's on their list though so maybe they know something we don't. It's possible that PayPal does non-financial/non-administrative operations over plain HTTP, but that seems risky and silly when you already have the security layer (obviously resources like images are fine over HTTP, but things like scripts and actually server-communication should be over HTTPS)... I think cookies would differ between HTTP and HTTPS sites (as the port would be different) so I don't think cookies would be shared between them. I could be wrong. PayPal is listed as one of the "incomplete" sites so maybe they're just calling out names. :P

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
avatar

It's now hit the local free newspaper ("Extra Östergötland") as well, with some wonderful sensationalism. :)

BTW, HTTPS is not expensive anymore.

--
Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Are cookies readable from any website?

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
avatar

Also front page of Stockholm Metro today. "FIRESHEEP WILL STEAL YOUR FACEBOOK PASSWORDS!!!111" (paraphrased).

Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
avatar

Well, I always use the https firefox plug and one that disables/protects cookies where possible.

Surely the likes of facebook/twitter would be encrypting the cookies and storing the main details in a database, as well as doing the usual stuff like id regeneration?

Neil.
MAME Cabinet Blog / AXL LIBRARY (a games framework) / AXL Documentation and Tutorial

wii:0356-1384-6687-2022, kart:3308-4806-6002. XBOX:chucklepie

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

If browsers allow any cookies to be read from any site, then the spec is already broken - it's a design flaw.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Surely the likes of facebook/twitter would be encrypting the cookies and storing the main details in a database, as well as doing the usual stuff like id regeneration?

Cookies are sent in the headers of your HTTP request with Facebook. It doesn't really matter if the cookie is "encrypted" or not if the connection itself isn't because the information in the cookie isn't actually interesting (usually). What is useful is that Facebook (and all Web sites) identify user sessions by the cookie, which means that if you have the cookie to send to Facebook then as far as Facebook knows you are on that user session and can do anything that user can do. I don't have a Facebook account, but IIRC most of the pages are not over HTTPS though. Probably just the login process. In other words, you can't encrypt just the cookie (you can, but it wouldn't do any good). You can either encrypt the entire connection or accept hijacking.

axilmar said:

If browsers allow any cookies to be read from any site, then the spec is already broken - it's a design flaw.

Cookies aren't so much "read" by Web sites as they are sent with HTTP requests in the headers. The beginning of every HTTP request has a header with the basic request information/protocol stuff followed by `name: value` lines. Cookies that match the host's domain or IP (however you are accessing the host) are sent with the request.

JavaScript, which runs client-side, can read cookies, but it only has access to cookies for its same domain. If the <script> tag is inline then it will be for the HTML document that it's embedded in. If the <script> tag is remote (i.e., src attribute) then I think that it applies to whatever host the script was fetched from. I haven't personally confirmed this though.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
avatar

The only real stopping point for HTTPS is the IP cost of some hosts. Once we are in a position where the folk who don't use HTTPS because it would double their hosting bill for the IP address is when this won't be an issue any more.

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

The only real stopping point for HTTPS is the IP cost of some hosts. Once we are in a position where the folk who don't use HTTPS because it would double their hosting bill for the IP address is when this won't be an issue any more.

An extra IP address with my (our) host is only $1/month... Then again, if you encrypt your entire site then you only need one (albeit, the bandwidth costs to encrypt images and the like would probably be more than the cost of an extra IP).

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Also, HTTPS supposedly supports virtual hosting now. So you should be able to get a https/ssl key from your hosting provider that you can use without having to get a second IP.

Of course some old clients might not support that, but how many people here want to support browsers like IE6? ;D

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

According to info gathered from various sites, Firesheep uses the winpcap library to sniff packets coming through the wi-fi network.

Firesheep reads the cookies sent by the browser to the target site and then uses them for accessing the accounts of the target site.

This means that any account where cookies are used for authentication can be compromised.

According to the info, this is a well known attack method known as session hijacking. Firesheep's originality is that it's the first program to allow any user to do it with a click of a button.

The web will not be secure until everything is encrypted, including DNS requests (of course). But this is something that will never happen, not because of cost (after all, if something is so important, hardware can be made specifically for that; graphics accelerators, for example), but because the authorities will lose the capability to eavesdrop the general public.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
avatar

How much is the cost of the plan you're on?

Also, I know of a host that doesn't offer static IPs (and by extension HTTPS) because of the fact IPv4 is running out of room.

[edit]

Of course some old clients might not support that, but how many people here want to support browsers like IE6? ;D

And Windows XP users running Chrome, Safari, IE7 and IE8

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

How much is the cost of the plan you're on?

We have the $80/mo plan. With a ram upgrade.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

axilmar said:

Are cookies readable from any website?

No. Cookies are always restricted by the top level domain. Optionally they can be restricted by path or sub-domain. You can also limit a cookie to only be set via SSL.

m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
avatar

you could guard against this without having to ssl every page by:

A) Having the user only use a single tab and do ajax for all page requests, probably implement your own javascript window manager and task bar like a web app so they can still browse multiple pages at once within a page.

Share a secret in the SSL reply to successful login that sets this up, a secret key that is used as a seed to a psuedo random number generator which is submitted with each page requests (as a cookie or a GET variable or whatever). The server stays in sync with a session variable to check if it is valid or not.

Snooping attacker can read your details but cannot form a valid reply.

An issue here is that the browsers rand() and the servers are likely to be different, plus the server must cache the state of it in session variable. This means you will have to implement your own PRNG in both server-side scripting and javascript, which is easy and fast.

B) An improvement that would allow multiple browser tabs would be if you can set javascript cookies that do not get sent to the server that could be used as a point of synchronization between all pages, or even more effectively by embedding a flash object that uses flash cookies and the external-interface api to act as a local storage engine for the javascript.

You'd still need to either have every link call a javascript function that blocks until it gets auth code and then modifies request and allows page to send and load, or instead prerequest one for each different link at page load and preset them to their own code, and the server tests if the code is within the next or previous 9,001 cycles of the PRNG for example, but will never accept the same code twice, to allow someone to not have to maybe wait at opening a new page and still open many links in new tabs for a new page even after its been sitting there for a few minutes (if all on same page used same preload value, only first would load a page the rest would be denied).

Each page has a javascript function and embedded flash object, javascript function onload disables all links replaced with a function that pops an alert saying "please enable flash or wait for flash object to initialize!" and then the flash object in frame 1 reads its flash cookie if it exists and then calls a JavaScript callback function to re-enable all linsk with future auth codes that it provides as an array argument.

The ssl login page would serve the initial seed value as a value of <input hidden or a hard coded return value of js function, that the flash object within that page would call when it's ready and set the flash cookie and then use js api to forward this intermediate "please wait" page to the success homepage or user control page or something.

Bullet Proof.

(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Regarding ^ these lies, if unencrypted, anything you send between client and server is known to the attacker. That includes Flash communication. In theory, you can come up with your own PRNG that is the same between client and server, but you'd have to ensure that both client and server have the same inputs (seeds), which is no easy task. More than likely, whatever algorithm you use would be discoverable by an attacker using the system or by analyzing traffic. And anyway for all intents and purposes it's just reinventing the square wheel. It's encryption. Instead of a secret key you have a secret algorithm. You might as well just rely on SSL, which is tried and tested, instead of relying on your homebrew attempt at security which is likely nowhere near as sophisticated as the standards trusted by the rest of the planet. ;)

All of that is before accepting that not all clients have JavaScript/Flash. ::) I hate sites that are crippled without them. So fucking annoying. >:(

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

Quote:

Reports have been trickling in that Microsoft’s anti-virus software is now detecting Firesheep as a threat, despite the fact that Firesheep poses absolutely no threat to the integrity of the system it’s installed on, and as mentioned earlier, has many legitimate uses. By installing anti-virus, you grant a third party the ability to remove files from your system trusting that only malicious code will be targeted. Microsoft and other anti-virus vendors abuse this trust and assert what they think you should or should not be doing with your computer. This is dangerous, but unfortunately not unprecedented.

http://codebutler.com/firesheep-a-week-later-ethics-and-legality?c=1

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

I thought this video from the minecraft thread was rather apt:

video

Not only does it have Firesheep, it has Firepigs[1]

References

  1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=714-Ioa4XQw ok, I know, not a super pig, but close enough!

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

All of the cookie hash is used in every login, it's not some secure table? :o
Append:
Ah, the whole cookie is transfered unencrypted? :-X

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

type568 said:

Ah, the whole cookie is transfered unencrypted? :-X

If http is used, nothing in the headers is encrypted. If https (ssl) is used, then everything is encrypted including the headers.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Lemme guess, SSL is more computational power consuming, and it's often vital for the servers? :-/

 1   2   3 


Go to: