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Blwhahha?!? An honest minister?
StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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I just want to read the warm and fluffy Bible quotes now

So what I hear is that this is what Jesus is to you. ;)

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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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I just want to read the warm and fluffy Bible quotes now :P.

Well, that's fine if that's how you want to live. I don't think you'll burn in Hell for only reading comforting passages ;) But if you're going to challenge people who dislike Christianity, expect them to come right back with some of those passages that make you uncomfortable.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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There's a lot to interpret about religion. But we agree that Jesus was white, good-looking, and totally ripped.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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But we agree that Jesus was white, good-looking, and totally ripped.

He was probably ripped, being a carpenter and all. But Jesus was African. That is to say, he was either somewhat olive, or just outright black ;D

append: What I don't get is why aren't more people Jewish, if it was good enough for Jesus, why isn't it good enough for you? >:(

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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Fair enough. I'm not really trying to challenge anybody, but everybody needs to see that there is nothing inherent in religion which is "bad" for people. I think back to when I was an atheist, and I compare it to what I experience now. When I go out, I have the overwhelming feeling that people are against me, loud noises make me think someone is enraged by my presence, and it's a surreal kind of balance between those thoughts and "it's all in my head". I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I felt when my family was mad (or as I learned later, saddened) that I didn't believe in God. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my beliefs are correct and theirs are wrong, I'm just trying to say, that despite my religion, I'm not a bad person. I don't want bamccaig or anyone to go through life thinking that religion == bad or religion == deceit. Damn, now this sounds preachy and I did not intend it to be.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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But we agree that Jesus was white, good-looking, and totally ripped.

HAHAHAHA! I assume you mean "ripped" in the "defined muscles" sense, and lots of images have him as a skinny little wimp. But he was a carpenter after all, with extremely crude hand tools, so he should have been pretty tough. OTOH, he looked so much like the other short dark black-haired population that Judas had to point him out to the Roman soldiers. According to the bible anyway.

The only way Trump is going to be involved in a landslide is if the land surrounding the White House collapses into the Earth's core. -- bamccaig

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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When I go out, I have the overwhelming feeling that people are against me, loud noises make me think someone is enraged by my presence, and it's a surreal kind of balance between those thoughts and "it's all in my head".

Err... seriously? What you are describing there is mental illness.
Yes, really. It sounds like paranoid schizophrenia. No joke. I wish it was, but... yeah.

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Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I didn't think someone with schizophrenia could pay attention long enough to type a paragraph ???

The only way Trump is going to be involved in a landslide is if the land surrounding the White House collapses into the Earth's core. -- bamccaig

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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bamccaig said:

I have ever had with a Christian, the message is always that they are good and others are bad.

You're stereotyping here. Most Christians I know, including myself, don't feel they're any better than anyone else by virtue of religion.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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A lot of my Bible study was done at a time when I was struggling with an undiagnosed mental illness, and the nature of the illness, as it was getting worse, caused some pretty irrational behaviour and extreme attitudes about things. Thus when I pick up a Bible now, I'm quite terrified by it. Afraid that I'll go back to those extreme ways of thinking and some pretty hellish times... I can only tolerate it in small doses and in the parts that I remember. Perhaps I'm naive, but I've done my 40 days of fasting in the wilderness, and I just want to read the warm and fluffy Bible quotes now :P.

IMHO, that's territory to explore with a mental health professional. And I say that with the utmost respect. Nevermind religion. It sounds like it holds more significance than it should for you. If you're afraid of relapsing then you should discuss it with someone. I don't think that you should live in fear of it.

Fair enough. I'm not really trying to challenge anybody, but everybody needs to see that there is nothing inherent in religion which is "bad" for people.

I respectfully disagree. IMHO, Religulous makes the point pretty clearly and fairly. Better than I can.

I think back to when I was an atheist, and I compare it to what I experience now. When I go out, I have the overwhelming feeling that people are against me, loud noises make me think someone is enraged by my presence, and it's a surreal kind of balance between those thoughts and "it's all in my head".

It sounds like you associate your past disbelief in any deity with past mental instability. I mean no respect, but that's just how I interpret it. I wonder if you've ever discussed your religious beliefs with a mental health professional familiar with your mental health history. It certainly sounds like your religious "beliefs" are more than just beliefs.

I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I felt when my family was mad (or as I learned later, saddened) that I didn't believe in God.

This sounds like you've been pressured into believing in God by your family. Not that that's a rare attribution.

...despite my religion, I'm not a bad person.

That just sounds like subconsciously you recognize the harm that it can have. :P I don't believe that all religious people are bad people. However, I do believe that it makes believers vulnerable to bad influence in a way that freer thinkers aren't. There's a reason that most[1] religions require of you that don't question them, of course.

I don't want bamccaig or anyone to go through life thinking that religion == bad or religion == deceit.

I don't "think" it. I know it. I was raised as a Christian and grew up with Christian friends. I have pretty "intimate" knowledge of it as a religion and how it affects the people around you. I'm not referring to some kind of "cult" masquerading as Christianity. I'm talking about your average, everyday Christianity. I've been exposed to many different churches and "flocks" and they've all been different, but they've all been the same too.

References

  1. I haven't confirmed it, but I've heard that Buddhism doesn't require this of you.
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

I don't "think" it. I know it. I was raised as a Christian and grew up with Christian friends. I have pretty "intimate" knowledge of it as a religion and how it affects the people around you.

And how does it effect the people around you? I see kindness, generosity, and caring coming out of the Christians I know. Sure, I see a few people who are bigoted and hateful, but looking at them I think they'd be that way no matter what, and just use religion as an excuse for it.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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And how does it effect the people around you?

In my experience, Christians are deceitful. Those that I have known appear to feel obligated to be nice and kind and caring to people, but as humans aren't actually capable of being it when they don't actually feel it. The result is that they pretend to be to please their conscience (i.e., "God"). Unfortunately, in the end, the people that "need" it from them need more than pretending and eventually the guise fails. People then get hurt and the deceitful deny any accountability. The end result is that the people that needed a friend are left broken, damaged, and untrusting; and the religious move on with their lives unscathed. Maybe that's just me.

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Bammy is just stereotyping based on his 2 asshole Christian friends.

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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There is no "hate" in Christianity.

Oh. That's good to hear. But that conflicts with some stuff I saw on the news last night. There was a story which involved a whole lot of christians (baptists, I think), trying to spread the word of their faith.. and in this particular case the word was that "god hates gays". Apparently these people believe that American soldiers who have been killed in recent wars are actually being punished by God for defending a country which sanctions homosexuality; or something like that. Anyway, it sounded extremely hateful. "Thank God for dead soldiers" read one of the signs... these people were apparently so hateful of gays and of people that supported the rights of gays that they were somehow pleased by the deaths of their own soldiers.

Ouch.

In general I do believe that a lot of good will, and creativity, and motivation is born out of religion; but is it worth the hate, and the intolerance, and the anti-science junk that comes along with it? I just don't know.

-----------

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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That sounds like you met some pretty terrible people who label themselves as Christian. All I can say is that I'm sorry to hear that people are doing this sort of thing (whether they call themselves Christian or not).

But these people are being hypocritical. That much is obvious. Pretending to care won't fool God, and anyone who actually believes in and follows God would know this. I'm just glad the Christians I met weren't so hypocritical, or I might never have converted! We aren't all evil, deceptive pricks.

EDIT:

There was a story which involved a whole lot of christians (baptists, I think), trying to spread the word of their faith.. and in this particular case the word was that "god hates gays". Apparently these people believe that American soldiers who have been killed in recent wars are actually being punished by God for defending a country which sanctions homosexuality

Me and my roommate (also Christian) both facepalmed when we heard about this. I'm sorry, stereotypically-bigoted homophobe, but God doesn't hate gays, or any other group of sinners (and why is it always the gays that are singled out? Why not the dudes who stare lustfully at women's cleavage?)

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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There's always some bad apples who ruin it for everyone else. This applies to any group, organization, etc.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I didn't think someone with schizophrenia could pay attention long enough to type a paragraph

Not at all. I don't believe schizophrenia has any effect on attention span (though, some of the drugs to treat it may well do so). There have been some quite prolific writers who had schizophrenia. Edgar Allen Poe comes to mind.

edit:

but everybody needs to see that there is nothing inherent in religion which is "bad" for people.

The one thing that I can think off is that belief in a creator who put us here for a purpose can cause people to pass off some of the responsibility for their actions on their 'creator.' Though it's debatable if this is a problem with belief in a creator, or just weak minded people. As has already been said, many of the people who do bad things because of their religion would possibly have done them anyway if they hadn't been exposed to that religion.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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That sounds like you met some pretty terrible people who label themselves as Christian.

This is the default defense that Christians take when other Christians[1] fail. They're not "real". They're not "like me". They're something else. I'm afraid those are the same Christians that you know.

But these people are being hypocritical. That much is obvious. Pretending to care won't fool God, and anyone who actually believes in and follows God would know this. I'm just glad the Christians I met weren't so hypocritical, or I might never have converted! We aren't all evil, deceptive pricks.

What you fail to comprehend is that they feel the exact same as you do. If I were to tell them this story about them (but not them) they would have an identical response. In fact, I've had them talk about each other behind each others' backs that way. :P I know you really want to think that they're not as good as you, but consider for a moment that they're just like you. In other words, what if you and/or your friends are just like them. What if? :)

LennyLen said:

The one thing that I can think off is that belief in a creator who put us here for a purpose can cause people to pass off some of the responsibility for their actions on their 'creator.' Though it's debatable if this is a problem with belief in a creator, or just weak minded people. As has already been said, many of the people who do bad things because of their religion would possibly have done them anyway if they hadn't been exposed to that religion.

It's easy to reverse that argument and say that if they hadn't had an imaginary "creator" to blame for their actions then they never would have committed them.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote:

In my experience <snip>

You need to come to terms with the idea that "your experience" is necessary to make sense of some of the things you say. That's why no one understands the original post; the experiences of others are different. Kinda like in the PlayStation Move thread.

bamccaig said:

This is the default defense that Christians take when other Christians fail. They're not "real". They're not "like me".

Nowhere did anyone play the "not like me" card (that I can see). There are some pretty clear standards and indicators laid out in the Bible. In much the same way as you might identify a particular Pokemon, if they don't fit the description, they aren't Christians. What they "feel" is irrelevant. What they "think" is irrelevant. Even the Bible says there are lots of people who will come to the shiny gates thinking they're going to get escorted right in for being so awesomely Christian, only to find out they weren't really anything. "But I should go to Heaven because I went to church every Sunday!" Yeah, life's a bitch, huh?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Bambam, would you play an online match against a Christian Sony fanboy who had bought two Move wands? ???

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Nowhere did anyone play the "not like me" card (that I can see).

Neil Black said that I had met some "terrible people" that merely "labeled themselves" as Christians, as if to suggest that they aren't really Christians, unlike himself. Is that not the "not like me" card?

There are some pretty clear standards and indicators laid out in the Bible. In much the same way as you might identify a particular Pokemon, if they don't fit the description, they aren't Christians.

Saweeet, could you list those standards and indicators for me please?

What they "feel" is irrelevant. What they "think" is irrelevant. Even the Bible says there are lots of people who will come to the shiny gates thinking they're going to get escorted right in for being so awesomely Christian, only to find out they weren't really anything. "But I should go to Heaven because I went to church every Sunday!" Yeah, life's a bitch, huh?

I hate to be the one to break this to you[1], but NOBODY meets the "standards and indicators" that Christians claim "regulate" who is and isn't a "real" Christian. There is no governing body or council that decides. Essentially, every individual decides whether or not somebody meets their definition of "Christian". In general, the answer is yes, assuming they convincingly claim to believe, at least until they're held accountable for their actions to another Christian, at which point they are suddenly exiled by said other Christian. Forgiveness? What?

There are no standards or indicators. The Bible is not a Christian handbook. Every church leader and indeed every Christian interprets for themselves what the Bible means. I really appreciated what Matthew Leverton said (albeit, he surely had no intention of supporting my argument) earlier about how Christians bend the Bible around their own personal beliefs instead of the other way around.

The Bible can't refer to Christianity specifically as Christianity came after. Additionally, most readers with half a brain would agree that it can't be taken literally as it itself contradicts itself. The best that you can do is interpret its meaning and apply that to what you believe. There is therefore no direct connection to God.

Bambam, would you play an online match against a Christian Sony fanboy who had bought two Move wands? ???

I suppose that it would depend on what type of "online match" that you are referring to. :P Counter-Strike or...?

References

  1. No I don't.
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

Neil Black said that I had met some "terrible people" that merely "labeled themselves" as Christians, as if to suggest that they aren't really Christians, unlike himself. Is that not the "not like me" card?

If you can show me where he specifically refereed to himself, sure. Keep in mind someone of any religion could have made the same comment as long as they had a rudimentary education of Christianity (ie: they knew what they were talking about), so the "not like me" is far from implied.

Quote:

Saweeet, could you list those standards and indicators for me please?

Considering the forum, I think I'd opt to keep that can of worms sealed. I already know from this crowd in general and you in particular that that's a discussion that will go exactly nowhere, especially since most of the rest of your post pretty much paints a picture of the type of ignorance I'd expect to see (Bible "contradictions" and history are old topics around here; you have absolutely nothing new to add besides flamebait). Feel free to call bullshit on me; I already know you never change your mind and I'm still waiting for you to answer my much earlier posts anyway, so hate away. ;D I'm going to bed. Make funnier threads pls.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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bamccaig said:

Additionally, most readers with half a brain would agree that it can't be taken literally as it itself contradicts itself.

I never have trusted the judgment of people with only half a brain. :-/

Quote:

albeit, he surely had no intention of supporting my argument

I don't even know what your argument is... The thing that is ironic about your statements is that on one hand you want to say Christianity is useless and evil, but on the other hand you want to broaden it to include every Tom, Dick, and Harry who say they are Christians because they were sprinkled with some holy water fifty years ago.

So you dumb down the concept of Christianity to the bare minimum of simply calling oneself a Christian, and then you act like everybody who is a Christian is some weird nut. It's just another form of irrational generalizations. The broader you define a concept, the fewer valid generalizations you can make.

It would be no different than assuming all atheists are rude because one of them farted in your general direction, and therefore everything they believe is nonsense, and every action they take is evil and self-centered.

Anyway, when somebody says "but he isn't a real Christian," all they really mean is "he doesn't believe the same things I do." And while you can argue all day over what the definition of being Christian is, the essence of what they are saying is still true: it's not fair to lump them into the same group just because they share a common name.

You have decided that Christianity is evil, and therefore everything associated with it must be. That's no different from what religious fanatics do regarding atheists.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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gnolam said:

Err... seriously? What you are describing there is mental illness.
Yes, really. It sounds like paranoid schizophrenia. No joke. I wish it was, but... yeah.

It is schizophrenia. I was diagnosed about 7-8 years ago.

And bamccaig, judging from your behaviour last night, about /*her*/, you're in no shape to make claims that I'm "damaged" from a mental illness. It's a sickness, just because you're sick, doesn't mean you can't think rationally.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Wow, an Allegro.cc thread about religion!!!!

Come on people, everyone is entitled to believe what he wants to believe. It doesn't matter, as long as said person doesn't cause any harm either directly or indirectly.

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