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I found a way to win the lottery!
blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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And yet those military tests shows somewhat positive results

You're trying to make an argument from authority, saying that just because an authoritative figure developed some sort of evidence, that means it's true. This is a logical fallacy and is not coherent at all.

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You can't claim they don't exist

Yes I can. As I said before, the only respectable and legitimate evidence regarding ESP, paranormal phenomena, etc. is evidence that falsifies its existence. I would like to read the results from these "tests" you are in so much favor of.

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Stating a fact that something does not exist is not a "negative".

Of course it is. You can't prove something doesn't exist, or that evidence doesn't exist, because there's such a thing as evidence that has not yet been found.

And yet those military tests shows somewhat positive results. You can't claim they don't exist ::)

Sure he can. I've been down this road ...

You're trying to make an argument from authority, saying that just because an authoritative figure developed some sort of evidence, that means it's true.

He's claiming that evidence exists which proves that evidence exists. He never said it was true, and just "having evidence" wouldn't prove it was true anyway. But you knew that.

Okay I'm leaving; too much deja vu for me here ...

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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Of course it is.

No it's not. Saying something is "stupid" is negative.

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You can't prove something doesn't exist, or that evidence doesn't exist, because there's such a thing as evidence that has not yet been found.

This is true, but you are forgetting that we can disprove something based on falsifying evidence.

---
"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Frankly, neither of you have shown evidence, falsifying or otherwise, so I'm calling you both out and going for supper. :P

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Saying something is "stupid" is negative.

No it isn't (though it is a statement with negative connotations). You stated "X doesn't exist." And you do not what doesn't is a contraction of right? Does not. In other words your statement was "X does NOT exist." Now, please state how that is not a negative assertion.

Out of curiosity, do you think atoms did not exist before their existence could be proven?

I would like to read the results from these "tests" you are in so much favor of.

They don't exist obviously (edit: conclusive tests I mean). That still doesn't prove conclusively that psychic phenomena don't exist. Yes, it's very unlikely they don't, but their non-existence hasn't been proven yet.

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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LennyLen said:

No it isn't

What in the hell. You completely misquoted me. I did not post the words that you quote that I did.

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Does not. In other words your statement was "X does NOT exist."

I don't mean it is not negative in the sense of a relative negative assertion. I mean that it is not negative in the same sense that telling children that monsters are not real.

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Out of curiosity, do you think atoms did not exist before their existence could be proven?

Jesus fucking christ. Read my posts. You can disprove something with falsifying evidence and no supporting evidence. Obviously, there was never any conclusive falsifying evidence that atom's did not exist before their popular emergence in modern day science.

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Yes, it's very unlikely they don't, but their non-existence hasn't been proven yet.

Once again. Yes it has. Via falsifying evidence. ::)

---
"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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What in the hell. You completely misquoted me. I did not post the words that you quote that I did.

Oh really?

{"name":"601940","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/b\/5bfa030d05104e38debdfb368dd787ed.jpg","w":715,"h":190,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/b\/5bfa030d05104e38debdfb368dd787ed"}601940

Quote:

I don't mean it is not negative in the sense of a relative negative assertion. I mean that it is not negative in the same sense that telling children that monsters are not real.

Then say what you actually mean instead of being vague. You criticise other people for logical fallacies and then use vague statements to make your point.

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Once again. Yes it has. Via falsifying evidence.

Then give us your evidence. So far, you're just talking out your ass.

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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LennyLen said:

Oh really?

OH MY GAWD. Maybe I have dyslexia. In any case, insert the word "not".

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Then say what you actually mean instead of being vague

There was no "vagueness" implied. A simple misunderstanding ::)

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Then give us your evidence.

What the fuck. If anyone needs to show any evidence, let it be those who believe in this crap. Not once in recorded history have they shown any conclusive supporting evidence (I've said this so many times in this thread). As far as the factual side of this argument, seek for the evidence yourself. I'm not going to go googling around looking for all the science articles and blogs I've read about about falsifying experiments.

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So far, you're just talking out your ass

Nice Ad Hominem.

---
"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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What the fuck. If anyone needs to show any evidence, let it be those who believe in this crap.

You asserted that evidence doesn't exist. We're just wondering what evidence you're basing that statement on. ;D

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

There was no "vagueness" implied. A simple misunderstanding

If you use a word with multiple meanings without specifying which meaning you are using, that is being vague.

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What the fuck. If anyone needs to show any evidence, let it be those who believe in this crap.

Yes they do. But you're also making assertions that you claim are tru, so you have to as well, or you're no better than them.

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Nice Ad Hominem.

Until you show what you're basing your claims on, we have to assume you're just making it up.

p.s. You should stop focusing on "logical fallacies" and remember there are other ways to make a bad argument (some of which you appear to be very good at).

decepto
Member #7,102
April 2006
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LennyLen said:

They don't exist obviously (edit: conclusive tests I mean). That still doesn't prove conclusively that psychic phenomena don't exist. Yes, it's very unlikely they don't, but their non-existence hasn't been proven yet.

Well, if hairs are to be split, existence isn't a proposition to be proven. A more fruitful approach to understanding the paranormal would be to ask the following:

1. What truths can be stated about the paranormal?

2. What testable hypotheses can be formulated regarding documented paranormal phenomena?

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Boom!

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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You asserted that evidence doesn't exist. We're just wondering what evidence you're basing that statement on.

I though you were leaving to eat supper :P. Anyway, I'm basing that assertion off of an enormous amount of research I've done on this stuff; off the fact that we still have lotteries (like Dammers said) and off the fact that if conclusive evidence of ESP existed, then the target subjects of those experiments would be so incredibly popular for their "super powers" that you would never hear the end of it. Not to mention their self empowering roles in religious practices and leadership.

---
"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I though you were leaving to eat supper :P.

Been an hour, dude. That's supper, desert, picking my teeth, and a round of Starcraft II multiplayer. Anyway, if I had ESP and knew I couldn't prove it or teach it, I'd just use it to improve my lot in life and never tell a soul. So, yeah.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Anyway, I'm basing that assertion off of an enormous amount of research I've done on this stuff

Oh, well and good then. Case closed. :P

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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if I had ESP and knew I couldn't prove it or teach it, I'd just use it to improve my lot in life and never tell a soul.

That's the secret behind the richest, most powerful people in the world. They all have ESP :o

---
"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

decepto
Member #7,102
April 2006
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Russell's teapot is coming to mind.

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the Celestial Teapot or Cosmic Teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), intended to refute the idea that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon the sceptic to disprove unfalsifiable claims of religions.

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Boom!

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

That's the secret behind the richest, most powerful people in the world. They all have ESP :o

Impossible; there's no evidence! :o

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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decepto said:

Russell's teapot is coming to mind.

That's ESP talking. :-/

decepto
Member #7,102
April 2006
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{"name":"johnny-carson.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/6\/4630a8b0d5ec1b850d3452c6a8a2d383.jpg","w":472,"h":349,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/6\/4630a8b0d5ec1b850d3452c6a8a2d383"}johnny-carson.jpg

--------------------------------------------------
Boom!

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
avatar

Impossible; there's no evidence!

{"name":"601941","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/b\/bb218df1e6af9fe570eb5b85b3e8e526.jpg","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/b\/bb218df1e6af9fe570eb5b85b3e8e526"}601941

---
"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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Why would god need cotton candy?

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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It's candy floss, dammit! >:(

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Russel's teapot is just an imaginary object created by Russel himself. The only purpose of it is to be a tool for explaining philosophical thoughts. There are no people who wish it was true. But there are people who wish God exists and they build up their view of life, universe and everything on that. Some live a happy and fulfilling life that way, some don't.

There are also people wishing that remote viewing were true. There are lots of failed experiments, that in the long run should give people a hint of how things really are, concerning remote viewing (the lotto number type of it). And no experiments verifying that it exists. So the whole concept is a creation of a human mind. And not a very scientific human mind, so don't compare to Democritus and his atoms.

Yes, I admit that I used "scientific human mind" very subjectively.

<edit>
OMG, I just came up with a horrifying thought. First I thought of quoting something about spirituality that Tobias mentioned. I was going to reply something that whatever spiritualism or deities your 42-view includes, if you succeed to live and die happy, that's the only thing what matters. Well, that's been said before, too. But my horrifying thought was this: "that's the only thing what matters"! Why is the word matter used here? I strongly believe homonyms affect our mind. Simply because language itself forms the brickstones of our thinking. Well, matter is well defined in physics, something that exists in the "real" world. So, to the question "What really matters in life?" an easy answer would be something related to the "real" world, to the materialistic or "matter" world. So if your mother tongue is English, you're more likely to grow a materialistic 42-view.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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There are no people who wish it was true.

Just like FSM! oh wait....

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Myrdos
Member #1,772
December 2001

I've never understood this definition of science that involves being unable to prove a negative. A casual glance reveals that there are no dragons in my room. If anyone doesn't believe it, they can come and see for themselves. And yet, I'm not supposed to say that there are no dragons in my room?

It seems very similar to the skeptic's challenge, which states that there's no way we can ever know if anything is true. It could be an illusion, you could be insane, etc. And yet, there's a very compelling answer to the skeptic's challenge:

The skeptic is urging us to consider reality in an improbable way. Since we are interested in knowing "the truth", we take that which is most probable, and use it for our basis of understanding. We discard things which are extremely improbable, unless the time comes when they seem more likely, at which point we may call them a new "truth".

I think this is the only real way to understand the universe without descending into madness. Thus, it is true that there are no dragons in my room.

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