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Silly theoretical physics question. |
Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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Arthur Kalliokoski said: No, the gravity will constantly slow them down, but if the objects are receding fast enough, they'll be under less gravitational pull (due to increased distance) than the amount of slowdown. It's called "escape velocity". For instance, the Earth has an escape velocity of 11.2 km/second, if you had nothing but the Earth and some small object at the edge of the universe, this object would fall to Earth after an incredibly long interval and impact the earth at 11.2 km/second. So if an object were propelled away from it at 12 km/second, it'd never slow to a standstill. I've always had problems grasping that. The force from gravity will certainly reach * extremely* small numbers, but since the object has no other forces acting on it, the mass (earth) would have to - eventually - negate the initial velocity and start accelerating the object back towards itself.
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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You know that gravity falls off as the square of the distance, right? {"name":"601493","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/d\/adf7e5c235afc9e598ed836fbd4ee4de.png","w":950,"h":548,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/d\/adf7e5c235afc9e598ed836fbd4ee4de"} So if the object gets twice as far from the earth (1/4 gravity) yet it's only slowed down 5% then it'll never fall back, although it's slowing the entire time. [EDIT] Play with some magnets a few minutes. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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[nvmed]
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Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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Arthur Kalliokoski said: So if the object gets twice as far from the earth (1/4 gravity) yet it's only slowed down 5% then it'll never fall back, although it's slowing the entire time. I've tried explaining this before to people but those who never took calculus have a hard time picturing infinity. ------------- |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Goalie Ca said: I've tried explaining this before to people but those who never took calculus have a hard time picturing infinity. Humans have a hard time picturing infinity. -- |
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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If there was just the Earth and another object at a huge distance from each other, the object would eventually hit Earth at 11.2 km/second. What would happen if you fired the object at Earth at 1 km/second instead of simply allowing it to "fall"? (And also somehow miss Earth or allow it to pass through?) Then it'd arrive at the equal distance on the other side, once again traveling at 1 km/second. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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I guess the easiest way is to think the speed function as similar to f(x) = 1/x. It stays positive though diminishing all the time. If the object would stop and start falling back to Earth because of the gravitation, it would be like f(x) = 1/x crossing the x axis at some point and turning negative. Well, the speed function is not 1/x, but it helps me picturing it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
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Before this thread I've never considered the term 'heat death' to be ambiguous. |
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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The particles disappear as fast as they're formed, but heat death doesn't imply lack of mass, it's just that the energy is perfectly spread out, so there's nowhere to "slide downhill" from. You can't get hydroelectric power or use a waterwheel on a stagnant river. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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Johan Halmén said: the speed function is not 1/x Actually, you should be able to use 1/x^2. ------------- |
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Goalie Ca said: Actually, you should be able to use 1/x^2
Is not that the force?
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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Arthur Kalliokoski said: It's called "escape velocity".
Again, xkcd to the rescue: --- |
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I never thought of how far gravity would extend if constant. The guy who calculated air pressure figured the earth's atmosphere would be 5 miles (8 km) deep if constant density throughout. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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type568 said: No, it is not necessarily true. If the objects move to away to each other fast enough, due to the distance between them being increasing it's absolutely not necessary at all for them to get pulled back together, they maybe always increasing the distance between them. Haven't observations shown the speed to be increasing? That's what my Astronomy professor said last semester.
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Neil Black said: Haven't observations shown the speed to be increasing? That's what my Astronomy professor said last semester.
Ah. Now. The weak link in that line of reasoning is that it relies on Ia supernovae being "standard candles", having the same luminosity whenever and whereever they go off. You sortof expect that if you think they're exploding white dwarfs that cross the Chandrasekhar mass, but the problem is we don't fully understand Ia supernovae and we're not really sure what exactly the progenitors are (even "exploding white dwarf" doesn't say much), and even if there is only one SN Ia channel. If there isn't, then different channels may show a different luminosity behaviour. Anyway, with that caveat (which is an active field of research as you might imagine): yes, it appears that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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That doesn't seem like very much evidence to support the attitude of complete surety my Astronomy professor had. He made it sound as if there was no doubt that the expansion is accelerating.
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Black said: He made it sound as if there was no doubt that the expansion is accelerating. Most of science is like that. We're still not sure that it all really started with a Big-Bang, and yet most people will tell you with no uncertainty that yes, it all started with a Big-Bang. -- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Thomas Fjellstrom said: Most of science is like that. We're still not sure that it all really started with a Big-Bang, and yet most people will tell you with no uncertainty that yes, it all started with a Big-Bang.
Within reason, yes. That's not saying that I necessarily don't believe the measurement or the interpretation, but I'm not convinced it's as solid as its sometimes made out to be. There are people who think that stellar astrophysics is all textbook-standard, well understood and essentially "done". This is not the case, but compared to the level of understanding we have about cosmology, it is much closer. So compared to other things we know about cosmology, assuming that SNeIa are "standard candles" is perhaps not doing so badly. When taken on its own, it's a bit less solid. |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Evert said: That's not saying that I necessarily don't believe the measurement or the interpretation, but I'm not convinced it's as solid as its sometimes made out to be. And you'll find scientists that have the same misgivings about things you happen to think are solid. Even non crack-pot scientists. It is kinda how science works. Nothing is ever 100% solid, theres always room for improvement and even complete turn arrounds. If there wasn't we'd probably still be stuck in the dark ages. -- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Thomas Fjellstrom said: And you'll find scientists that have the same misgivings about things you happen to think are solid. Even non crack-pot scientists. It is kinda how science works. Nothing is ever 100% solid, theres always room for improvement and even complete turn arrounds. If there wasn't we'd probably still be stuck in the dark ages. Yes, but in degrees. If it turns out that the SNeIa data can be interpreted without needing accelerated expansion of the universe, I would not be shocked. It would make the universe a bit less weird too. When you get down to it, we can't really say that the conventional interpretation is the only reasonable one. The idea that SNeIa are standard candles follows from a simple and straightforward calculation of what we think they are. No one has done the detailed calculation, because there are many uncertainties associated with that, and we don't know that there are no anomalous SNeIa (actually, we do know that there are and people have done some detailed calculations, and indications are that they are probably not standard candles). If data shows up that disproves the big bang model, I would be quite surprised. Properties of the big bang model have been extensively tested and predictions have been verified to a large extend. We don't know a great deal about the early universe, but the big bang model itself seems very well tested. Any model that were to replace is will have to converge to the same late-time evolution as the big-bang model (not saying whether that's hard or easy; it may be quite easy or it may be quite hard, I don't know) and then one question I would have is how essentially different it is. If data shows that Newtonian gravity is wrong, I would be quite shocked. This is so well tested and verified that if it were disproven, the entire construct of modern physics would come crashing down. |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Lets just say I agree. Its just much easier to explain that nothing is a given. And if that was the way "science" was explained, people would be less upset when theories and models change (as they often do *cough*pluto*cough*). -- |
Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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As I understand it, Pluto is not an example of a changing model or theory; just a change in definition of what it means to be called a 'planet'. The technical meaning of the word 'planet' was tidied up a bit to be more consistent, that's all. I don't think there has been any recent changes in our physical understanding of Pluto or anything related to it - at least not recently. But yes, no scientific theory can be absolutely 'proven' to be true... but we can be pretty darn confident about many things - confident enough to bet our lives on them, which we frequently do. ----------- |
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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Karadoc ~~ said: I don't think there has been any recent changes in our physical understanding of Pluto or anything related to it True. IIRC they found a chunk or two there that was as big as Pluto and therefore would have needed to be called a planet. And then they didn't want to start calling these new chunks planets, so they had to come up with new definitions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Karadoc ~~ said: As I understand it, Pluto is not an example of a changing model or theory; just a change in definition of what it means to be called a 'planet'. Sorry, maybe I used the wrong term. But I thought "model" would fit. Given its the model of our view of planets and our solar system that changed. -- |
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