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| 1.3 million GM cars are being recalled |
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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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I have driven a few times a car with automatic transmission. Was kind of fun, but I'd not buy one. I would feel very unsure f.i. when parking the car and the street is icy. It's like the gear box is full of dough and you don't know at what point something starts to happen. Sure one gets used to it, but still it's not something I like. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
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MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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I currently drive a manual, without cruse control (does any manual come with that option?), and I question if it has ABS or not. I'm leaning toward no as the recent snow storms has shown me that if I hit the brakes, and it slides, releasing the brake and it stops sliding. --- |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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MiquelFire said: does any manual come with that option? Yes, in which case there's a switch on both the brake and clutch to disengage it. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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MiquelFire said: I currently drive a manual, without cruse control (does any manual come with that option?) Oh... my... god... Insert Matthew Perry's "what have you been smoking"-face here Quote: and I question if it has ABS or not. You can tell if it has ABS by two ways. 1. Under hard braking in slippery conditions, if you feel the brake pedal kicking back sharply and repeatedly, and/or if you hear a grinding noise, ABS is present. 2. Check under the hood, there should be a unit that looks somewhat like this: Quote: if I hit the brakes, and it slides, releasing the brake and it stops sliding. Any decent driver can feel when a tire locks up or is about to. You can feel it from the steering wheel and the seat and it also affects your sense of balance. You don't deserve my sig. |
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StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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jhuuskon said: Any decent driver can feel when a tire locks up or is about to. I am not a car fanatic. I drive at the speed limit and have never been the driver during a collision. I have no idea what a locking tire feels like, and my car does not have ABS. Does this make me a crappy driver? __________________________________________________ |
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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Pretty much, yeah. To be a good driver is to know how your car will behave in unexpected situations. Being careful isn't all there is to it. You don't deserve my sig. |
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StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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What situation causes a tire to lock up anyways? I see people talking about driving on ice. There is no ice where I live. __________________________________________________ |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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If the brakes are applied with enough force that the friction between pad/rotor or shoe/drum is greater than the friction between tire/road, the wheel stops rotating and you skid. Since static friction exceeds sliding friction, you're not slowing down as fast as if you were at the limit of skidding. Also, a wheel slides sideways just as well as forwards, so you give up all directional control when the wheels are locked up. Driving on ice simply reduces the traction, and if you drive the way you habitually do in good weather, you'll skid all over the place. Of course, sometimes the crown of the road itself is too steep to keep the car on the road with melting smooth ice. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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StevenVI said: I am not a car fanatic. I drive at the speed limit and have never been the driver during a collision. I have no idea what a locking tire feels like, and my car does not have ABS. Does this make me a crappy driver?
In a way, yes. You should know what it feels like to have your tires lock up because if you're ever in an emergency where you need to stop fast, you need to know how to handle it if you want to handle it well. Studies have shown that in nearly 50% of accidents it was the other guy that caused it. There's such a thing called threshold braking. It's essentially what ABS does for you. Whenever the tires lock up, it releases the brakes momentarily and then grabs them again. This helps to prevent the skid caused by a locked tire, which helps prevent you from losing control (the actual effectiveness depends on the quality of the system). Without ABS, you basically have to do this yourself. A lot of people are taught to "pump the brakes" (I especially hear this from previous generations), but that's the brainless way to brake without ABS (with ABS it's even less effective). The intelligent way to brake without ABS is to use threshold braking. You only brake as hard as you can without locking up the tires, essentially walking the line between locked and not locked. If you go a little too far and feel the tires locking up then you let up just enough for them to start spinning again. Your aim is to slow them down, not stop them. Slowing the tires will slow the car. Stopping the tires too soon will result in a skid. I think some people just naturally don't comprehend the physics involved when driving though, the same as I don't naturally understand social interaction. I suppose there isn't much you can do about it aside from taking it easy or getting professionally trained.
-- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Steven VI should go to a large abandoned parking lot in the rain (no cops) and get jiggy wid it for practice. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Well, worn road + hard rain can cause hydroplaning for example. A hydroplaning tire behaves pretty much the same as a locked up one, and will lock up if the brakes are applied. However one needs to be pretty damn numb to not feel hydroplaning taking place. Of course, if one has never hydroplaned before, he/she won't know what's happening. They may lock up under any hard braking. Or when trying to brake normally but someone's leaked oil onto the road. Or if the oil's been cleaned up a month ago but it's rained recently and the road's still wet (a friend broke a collarbone this way), the residual oil is almost impossible to get off and with rain it becomes very slippery, even if the same spot provides normal grip in dry conditions. You don't deserve my sig. |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Arthur Kalliokoski said: Steven VI should go to a large abandoned parking lot in the rain (no cops) and get jiggy wid it for practice.
I was going to suggest that, but I'm afraid of getting him killed... If he takes it easy enough then he should be fine, but I would recommend trying this in a small, wide ish, low car. For example, start by driving in a straight line (again, in an empty parking lot or empty straight stretch of road[1]) really slow (maybe 10 km/h or 6 mph[2]) and try putting the brake pedal hard to the floor. This should be enough to lock the tires momentarily, but be slow enough that you'll come to a stop before the car has a chance to do anything crazy (keep in mind that short, thin, and high vehicles are much less stable than their opposites). Once you're comfortable with how the car reacts, try going a little bit faster (15 km/h or 9 mph). If you gradually increase the speed then you should be able to feel the incremental differences in how the car reacts. The faster you're going, the longer you'll skid, and the more chance there will be for the car to spin or roll. If you do feel the car start to spin or roll, let off the brakes and steer towards the direction you want to go (hopefully you won't get much of this at such low speeds, but it is possible). That should be enough to give you an idea, at least. Anything more and I would highly recommend you hire a driving instructor to guide you. At least, I don't feel comfortable encouraging more without seeing how you handle that. I wonder if you could participate in police driving instruction. They learn some really cool stuff.
References
-- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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bamccaig said: a vehicle with a high enough center of gravity will want to roll. There was a brouhaha a few years ago about some Suzuki SUV that could roll over from extreme maneuvering, and the Suzuki PR people said that "people don't do these maneuvers in parking lots" but the reason the testers did the tests in parking lots as opposed to actual roads was so innocent people wouldn't get in the way. But I'd think even this model of Suzuki could remain upright with the limited traction of a wet surface (unless it was really rough or had large cracks that could "trip" the tires) They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Arthur Kalliokoski said: There was a brouhaha a few years ago about some Suzuki SUV that could roll over from extreme maneuvering, and the Suzuki PR people said that "people don't do these maneuvers in parking lots" but the reason the testers did the tests in parking lots as opposed to actual roads was so innocent people wouldn't get in the way. But I'd think even this model of Suzuki could remain upright with the limited traction of a wet surface (unless it was really rough or had large cracks that could "trip" the tires) Are you referring to the Suzuki Sidekick? {"name":"Suzuki-Sidekick-convertible.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/5\/45f8c1b23ba192f79fb0718771530a2f.jpg","w":1124,"h":624,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/5\/45f8c1b23ba192f79fb0718771530a2f"} Those are a prime candidate for spinning and rolling. They have a short wheel base and axle track and a relatively high center of gravity. I think you'd be able to stay in relative control if you were able to stay straight enough, but I'm sure it would want to spin around on you at anything close to highway speeds and once that happens you're fucked. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Actually a car with a short wheel span is less likely to spin than one with a long one, this one I can tell from experience. However, in an oversteer a long wheel span is much easier to control than a short one as the "lever" from the rear wheels (may they be controlled by the handbrake or engine torque) to the pivot (front wheels) is longer so the weight at the end of the lever, (which causes the oversteer in the first place) is easier to keep in check. You don't deserve my sig. |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I had an AMC Gremlin back in the day, it was also notorious for a high center of gravity (I could squeal the tires going at the speed limit around curves) but I also put it sideways plenty of times without rolling it over. {"name":"06-1972-gremlin-xlt.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/3\/d3eacf88e063dd17ae7dd3c2a3b1a6cd.jpg","w":640,"h":384,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/3\/d3eacf88e063dd17ae7dd3c2a3b1a6cd"} [EDIT] jhuuskon said: A functioning rear pressure regulator also helps (these things can and do get stuck but are hardly ever serviced). A what?? They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Or the infamous Mercedes A-Class (or "Weltklasse"[1], as it quickly became known as over here), that was so unstable it flipped over during a standard avoidance test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose_test References
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Obstacles such as mooses and others of their elk should be fined and removed from the road They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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jhuuskon said: Actually a car with a short wheel span is less likely to spin than one with a long one, this one I can tell from experience.
I was doubting myself as I wrote that too.
|-----| -+
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wheel span (can differ between front and rear)
Correct? -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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bamccaig said:
|-----| -+ Correct? If that's wheel span, then there's no way a shorter wheel span will reduce roll overs. It's a simple lever arm equation, but easier still, look at formula 1 cars. Rolling over is dependent on the center of gravity, the roll center (and their relation to each other), as well as suspension geometry (chamber gain on roll, roll stiffness, etc). Interesting side note: Cars with the same mass, and same weight distribution (50/50 front/rear, 80/20, etc) can handle completely different due to the moment of inertia which depends on how far weight is away from the center of gravity. That means a 50/50 split car with the engine at the middle, and one with the engine at the front and transmission/diff at the rear will handle completely differently. The middle engine one will resist turning much less and feel more "nimble." Whereas the front engine, rear transmission, will feel like a freight train. Even though they both have an even and identical amount of weight on each wheel. -----sig: |
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Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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My car has ABS and I'm more than happy it does as I'm sure it's saved me many times in snow and ice. As for dodgy cars, this was my first (just a representation) and I crashed it up the side of a mountain, it had rear wheel drive, a massive bonnet and absolutely no ability to stay on the tarmac when cornering. It still drove me home though despite no exhaust, no wings, crumpled bonnet, broken roll bars, etc {"name":"708061492_7a2c68ebb1.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/2\/7236a2481151585c2ca87da4d13ea10c.jpg","w":500,"h":375,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/2\/7236a2481151585c2ca87da4d13ea10c"} Neil. wii:0356-1384-6687-2022, kart:3308-4806-6002. XBOX:chucklepie |
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verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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Neil Walker said: a massive bonnet
{"name":"350px-Invisibles-Tete-a-Tete-poke-bonnet-satire-1810s.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/a\/3a436e0c0bee3c1e63ffc1a028d780c9.jpg","w":350,"h":218,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/a\/3a436e0c0bee3c1e63ffc1a028d780c9"} Arthur Kalliokoski said: jhuuskon said: A functioning rear pressure regulator also helps (these things can and do get stuck but are hardly ever serviced). A what?? A differential?
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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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bamccaig said: I was doubting myself as I wrote that too. Just to be clear,... wheel base = wheel span != track width. In my previous post, long/short => measured front/back => wheel span, wide/narrow => measured left/right => track width. Chris Katko said: If that's wheel span, then there's no way a shorter wheel span will reduce roll overs I never referred to rolling over, just spinning. Track width, spring rates and the height of gravity center are more significant for rollover tendency. However, stiff springs also make a car easier to spin on soft and slippery surfaces such as gravel, snow and ice. Suspension design is all about tradeoffs and a lot of suspension geometry affects a lot of other things, so at best a good suspension is at the driver's desired point between comfort, stability and grip. For example the legendary 205 GTI is comfortable and hangs on to the road like it was glued to it but it's possible to roll the car over by mad cornering alone. Likewise, I had this old Mitsubishi Lancer that had Weitec Ultra GT suspension kit, it had grip and it didn't roll and spun only if provoked but it was also uncomfortable as hell. verthex said: A differential? No. A bleeder valve that regulates the hydraulic pressure from the master cylinder or ABS pump depending on rear axle load. I.e. if the trunk is full of stuff, the rear end sits lower down, a mechanical linkage opens the bleeder valve so the brake pedal gives more pressure ("braking power") to the rear brakes. During hard braking, if the regulator is stuck fully open, the rear tires can lock up, if it's stuck almost closed, the inertia of the weight of the rear pushes forward while the front wheels do all the braking and the car becomes very unstable. The purpose of the rear brakes is not slowing the vehicle down, their purpose is to keep the rear end under control when braking. The front wheels do all the stopping. You don't deserve my sig. |
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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000
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Hang on, what's this about genetically modified cars? I want organic. -- |
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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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decepto said: I own a 2002 Sonata. It has about 150,000 miles on it. It's been a work horse, and I absolutely love it. It looks like shit, but it gets the job done. The quality of Hynadai's product is comparable to Honda's, but it has a poorer perception in the marketplace and thus is cheaper. Unless I hit the lottery, my next car will definitely be another Sonata.
The new ones even look good. |
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