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Yay!
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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BAF said:

Yeah, if you can find away to store a usable amount of energy. I can drive several hundred miles on a tank of gas and fill up almost anyplace within a few minutes. Can't do that with batteries, and probably not pneumatics either. Possibly hydrogen, but they still have the problem of storing a useful amount of the stuff.

I don't think you're being creative enough. Gas has an infrastructure that's been established for over fifty years. What's the difference in filling up a tank of gas and going to a "gas" station and swapping batteries? And pneumatics, being gas, can fill far faster than liquids due to their much lower viscosity.

Hydrogen is a automatic biproduct of modern nuclear reactors that can be made extensively during low power consumption periods that occur every night. Hydrogen can be burned in a common engine exactly like gasoline. Hydrogen can also be put into fuel cells. Either way, it has zero carbon emissions because it contains no carbon. NOx emissions suck however, due to the very high temperature of stoichiometric combustion.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Gasoline is mostly a very compact way of storing hydrogen. The carbon atoms increase the molecular weight enough that it's a liquid at room tempurature. 'Nuff said.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
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Farming the gulf/jet streams is probably the most risky and least environmentally friendly method available. Almost every climate on the planet is dependent on them and with melting Ice - I think Greenland is of particular interest - we're weakening it as it is. If we alter it enough to change it's path, billions will die.

There are some cancer studies that need serious examination but I think nuclear is usually singled out for pollution because it's in one single place. Also, people like to believe their own driving is harmless. I'm glad we're investing in nuclear and hope we can do it it a clean and safe manner.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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There was a study discussed in the press here a while ago that showed that the rates of Leukemia in children were somewhat higher in areas near nuclear power plants... Yay!

Well yeah. But nobody ever made a comparative study of health impacts from coal plants and nuclear plants. When you think about all nuclear powerplant failures you see that there was only one with radioactive material leakage caused by sheer stupidity. When you obtain some data on materials contained within a smoke from regular coal plant you'll see that Chernobyl is a needle in the haystack of radioactive material spitted into the atmosphere.

By the way, has anyone ever made a calculation how big is an environmental impact caused by manufacturing a hybrid or pure electrical car and its batteries?

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BigBertus
Member #2,093
March 2002

OICW said:

When you obtain some data on materials contained within a smoke from regular coal plant [...]

Oh, thank you, I didn't know before!

Well, what about Uranium supply? It isn't infinite either, is it?
What if someone insane crashes a plane into a nuclear power plant?

And still:
Who will guard the radioactive waste for 2000+ years?

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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OICW: I love how all arguments against nuclear energy are ones that would be solved with a simple Google search. ... and yet it's still a debatable issue.

For instance, coal fired plants inject more uranium into the atmosphere than nuclear power plants. ::)

OICW said:

By the way, has anyone ever made a calculation how big is an environmental impact caused by manufacturing a hybrid or pure electrical car and its batteries?

Very bad. Not to mention things like copper prices skyrocketing because we're selling millions/billions of large electric motors now.

Gasoline is mostly a very compact way of storing hydrogen. The carbon atoms increase the molecular weight enough that it's a liquid at room tempurature. 'Nuff said.

Except that it contains carbon and therefor pollutes the environment significantly more than hydrogen.

Well, what about Uranium supply? It isn't infinite either, is it?

It will last us 20,000+ years. I would hope that in 20,000 years we will be able to find a new form of energy. We've had internal combustion engines for less than 300.

Quote:

What if someone insane crashes a plane into a nuclear power plant?

Already been tested. The videos are even on YouTube.

Quote:

And still:
Who will guard the radioactive waste for 2000+ years?

It's possible we can reprocess and use it. Not even trying certainly won't get us the answer to that question.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Except that it contains carbon and therefor pollutes the environment significantly more than hydrogen.

Pollutant, huh? Guess I'd better go around with a bag of lime attached to my head so I don't get fined.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

BigBertus
Member #2,093
March 2002

It's possible we can reprocess and use it. Not even trying certainly won't get us the answer to that question.

Who is "we"? Are "we" really going to try, even if it could be very expensive? Still, you won't be able to reuse 100% of it.

Quote:

Already been tested. The videos are even on YouTube.

Where? Do you have the link?

OICW said:

When you think about all nuclear powerplant failures you see that there was only one with radioactive material leakage caused by sheer stupidity.

That exactly is the point. You won't stop "sheer stupidity" with technology...

Not to mention corruption.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Well, here in Germany/continental Europe, you're still advised not to eat mushrooms you find in the woods in some regions because of the Chernobyl disaster... (the distance being some 1200-1500 km (800-1000 miles) / 24 years). Not that I ever cared about eating mushrooms in the woods. But it's scary.

Pfft. The only fallout you guys got was in the extreme east of Germany, and that wasn't even that bad. ;)

What if someone insane crashes a plane into a nuclear power plant?

In the absolute worst case scenario, there's only the containment building between the plane and the reactor. But the containment building is basically a bunker - it's a steel and reinforced concrete structure specifically designed to withstand explosion-level overpressures. Besides cold war military bunkers, nuclear reactors are pretty much the most hardened targets available. And even if the containment structure is breached, that's not enough - the plane needs to penetrate down through to the reactor core to release any radioactity (sure, there's activity in e.g. the primary coolant loop as well, but a breach there will only cause limited, local contamination).
And that's the worst case. Normally, you have an entire building surrounding the containment structure as well, which basically makes the whole thing a bunker with standoff armor.

So to summarize: it'd temporarily shut down operations at the reactor, but getting any appreciable release of radioactivity into the environment is extremely unlikely.

That exactly is the point. You won't stop "sheer stupidity" with technology...

Au contraire. Technology (automation, decision-aiding systems, etc) can make up for a lot of stupidity.

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BigBertus
Member #2,093
March 2002

gnolam said:

Pfft. The only fallout you guys got was in the extreme east of Germany, and that wasn't even that bad. ;)

Yes, I recall it was rather worse in Sweden... ;)

Quote:

Au contraire. Technology (automation, decision-aiding systems, etc) can make up for a lot of stupidity.

Stupidity, contrary to Earth's ressources, is infinite :P

We all know it. There's that blinking light which has been blinking all the time and nothing severe has happened. Well, okay, nothing has happened, why do anything about it? Just disconnect that annoying light and everything is allright again. Some other time, of course, there might be other circumstances...
It's just human.

Depends on how narrowly you define stupidity and what level of decision-making you take into consideration... What about delaying necessary investments or falsifying/"understating" reports? I'd call that stupid, too.
But, hey, there's some profit to be made. Besides, you don't want to spoil the image of your corporation. ... Good for you that at least no one without equipment will detect the radiation.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

The Americans say that nuclear power is feasible and that the nuclear waste is not a problem, the Europeans say it is not feasible and that nuclear waste is a problem. Most probably, the truth should be in between the two positions.

For me, if nuclear is a viable option from all aspects (including management of waste), then it is welcomed, provided that the dangers from mismanagement are minimized, i.e. if the procedures for managing nuclear power are easy to follow and minor deviations will not create havoc.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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I say we just use fusion, because it doesn't produce radioactive waste. Also, we already have a big fusion generator ready to be used. It's called the sun.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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I say we just use fusion, because it doesn't produce radioactive waste.

Not true, it produces very little waste but the walls of the reactor need something to shield the neutrons produced. The shield eventually acquires radioactivity due to neutron capture.

The other problem with fusion technology is the proliferation of fusion nuclear weapons. If for example Iran decided to build a fusion plant, they would eventually also figure out the system to build a fission-fusion type weapon.

If you read dumbed down news like CNN they'll never tell you these things because they want as much public support for the hype as possible without any drawbacks so your tax money can be used without your senator worried about being reelected.

There might be just as many problems with fusion as there are with fission, and as long as the world doesn't explode due to some religious nut then the technology is safe and sound. I mean Iran's president of course.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Good for you that at least no one without equipment will detect the radiation.

The problem, of course, being that people do have the equipment. Around here, radiation is constantly being monitored throughout the country through a combination of fixed monitoring stations (to catch airborne particles)[1] and regular[2] gamma dose rate measurements at reference points in every municipality. I would hope other countries have similar programs, even if they're not quite as ambitious.

axilmar said:

The Americans say that nuclear power is feasible and that the nuclear waste is not a problem, the Europeans say it is not feasible and that nuclear waste is a problem.

Huh?

References

  1. The first ones were built in the '50s for a different purpose - to gather intelligence (hint: check the distance between Sweden and Novaya Zemlya). :)
  2. Every seven months.

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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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axilmar said:

provided that the dangers from mismanagement are minimized, i.e. if the procedures for managing nuclear power are easy to follow and minor deviations will not create havoc.

That's a great point (and I mean that) except that it doesn't even apply to our current power infrastructure.

Nuclear energy is much safer because they're required to take precautions because everyone is so afraid of it. The same cannot be said about other means of energy generation.

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Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Err, I have an idea...why dont we install kinetic energy gathering strips under every pathway, motorway and road in the world, so as people move around the energy produced can be stored...bear in mind that I'm an egg, so my plan may not be perfect.

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Dizzy Egg said:

Err, I have an idea...why dont we install kinetic energy gathering strips under every pathway, motorway and road in the world, so as people move around the energy produced can be stored...bear in mind that I'm an egg, so my plan may not be perfect.

Because you'll be ruining the efficiency of the cars' engines. The energy those strips would be collecting would not be 'wasted' energy, but rather the energy that was meant to be used for moving the cars in the first place.

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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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What's the difference in filling up a tank of gas and going to a "gas" station and swapping batteries? And pneumatics, being gas, can fill far faster than liquids due to their much lower viscosity.

Nothing, except batteries are heavier and it will be a little more difficult. Well, that, and that batteries are horribly inefficient ATM. Both in terms of losses in charging/using the stored energy as well as weight. Good luck getting a long range with our current battery tech. Oh yeah, and then the fact that they have a limited service life and are usually quite bad for the environment.

Pneumatics are fine too, but unless you can get it high pressure enough to liquify, it's not a very dense way to store energy, so you probably won't get a long range out of it.

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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But not just cars, people walking etc as well...

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Dizzy Egg said:

But not just cars, people walking etc as well...

That's probably fine then, especially on American sidewalks... this might even be seen as a public service ;).

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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

axilmar said:

The Americans say that nuclear power is feasible and that the nuclear waste is not a problem, the Europeans say it is not feasible and that nuclear waste is a problem. Most probably, the truth should be in between the two positions.

I am an European, I am for nuclear power and I dont care where the waste goes to. :P

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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BAF said:

Nothing, except batteries are heavier and it will be a little more difficult. Well, that, and that batteries are horribly inefficient ATM. Both in terms of losses in charging/using the stored energy as well as weight. Good luck getting a long range with our current battery tech. Oh yeah, and then the fact that they have a limited service life and are usually quite bad for the environment.

Pneumatics are fine too, but unless you can get it high pressure enough to liquify, it's not a very dense way to store energy, so you probably won't get a long range out of it.

I'm just saying that there are plenty of real-world applications that are on-par if not better than current ones so we should put significant research and subsidies into producing them instead of relying on gas just because it's what we've been doing for years.

Vanneto said:

I am an European, I am for nuclear power and I dont care where the waste goes to. :P

Moreover, coal releases tons (as in literal use of the word) of waste. The difference between nuclear and coal is that nuclear gets stored in large waste facilities in the ground and coal gets pumped into our air. For those who don't know, our respiratory systems are much more susceptible to carcinogens than our digestive systems and our skin. This is why you can eat BBQ (which has carcinogens) and never get cancer, whereas if you smoke you're... playing with fire.

Do do ttsssss....

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verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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The same cannot be said about other means of energy generation.

I have yet to see Chernobyl pale in comparison to any coal or oil plant but everyone thinks the Russians and the USSR are the only idiots who can't handle nuclear power so the US ramps up support saying that cannot happen. The fact is there is always a chance a reactor can meltdown. Its a chance and there is no way around human error, earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, freak airplane crashing into the reactor, homer Simpson types at the plant, or some other reason that might just make the thing blow up. 3 mile island is the last reactor accident in the US and that was one reason why no one proposed a new plan and actually funded it till now.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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verthex said:

I have yet to see Chernobyl pale in comparison to any coal or oil plant but everyone thinks the Russians and the USSR are the only idiots who can't handle nuclear power so the US ramps up support saying that cannot happen.

Yeah, no matter what, you shouldn't disable all the safeties, and run the reactor without coolant. Bad idea. Letting idiot military leaders who know nothing about nuclear power have actual power in a nuclear plant is pretty stupid.

Quote:

The fact is there is always a chance a reactor can meltdown.

Theres probably a better chance of being hit by a meteor just after winning the lottery, while on a plane thats already crashing ;)

Quote:

freak airplane crashing into the reactor,

As was explained earlier, theres little chance of an air plane actually doing any damage to the reactor since not only is it encased in massively thick steel reinforced concrete, usually with another larger concrete building surrounding the actual reactor.

Before you act all scared, try looking up the new technologies and reactor designs available. All of the past accidents all happened with rather ancient and immature/crude designs. As people say "shit happens". Except the radiation in nuclear plants is normally well contained, where as in coal plants its put straight into the air.

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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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verthex said:

The fact is there is always a chance a reactor can meltdown.

Many modern reactors have passive safety features that prevent meltdown. Meaning they don't have to be triggered at all.

Wikipedia said:

For example, pebble bed reactors are designed so that complete loss of coolant for an indefinite period does not result in the reactor overheating. The General Electric ESBWR and Westinghouse AP1000 have passively-activated safety systems. The CANDU reactor has two low-temperature and low-pressure water systems surrounding the fuel (i.e. moderator and shield tank) that act as back-up heat sinks and preclude meltdowns and core-breaching scenarios [Allen et al.].

Moreover, the entire world haven't seen a meltdown since 1986 which was under the collapsing Soviet Union. Meanwhile, we've had plenty of oil spills and wars over oil. Heck, I just realized that more people are going to die trying to control oil than are going to die in any nuclear accident.

The biggest issue with "safety" with nuclear energy is that people don't understand it like they do standard physical reactions like combustion. They treat it like magic, and fear it accordingly.

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