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Sevalecan
Member #4,686
June 2004
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Chris Katko said: Ford is afloat because of the F150. GM is too huge to survive with only one good vehicle. Chrysler can't make a good truck ( horrible transmission failure rates). Strange.. the 727 automatic is usually noted as a very strong an reliable transmission. Of course, they might use something altogether different by now.. It was introduced in what, the 60s? Though our 84 dodge ram and my dad's 95 dodge ram have it. But if you want to see transmission failure, look at a GM with a 700R4 overdrive transmission. All we did was overhaul them. I guess they like to make overdrive trannies fairly flimsy, though my dad's 95 has an overdrive extension on the back that seems to have held up over 200,000 miles before needing an overhaul. [edit] One other question, why is it that newer diesels all get worse mileage than they did before? An old rabbit would get 45-57 mpg given what I've read, but a new diesel jetta or whatever is lucky to hit anything in that range, even the prius can't match it. And our 6.2 diesels with 4 speed overdrive trannies would get 18-21 mpg, for a full size 3/4 ton vehicle.. I hear that the newer ones can't really reach that either. TeamTerradactyl: SevalecanDragon: I should shoot you for even CONSIDERING coding like that, but I was ROFLing too hard to stand up. I love it! |
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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My friends new diesel Jetta pulls 55-60 MPG. A/C pulls more. As for Dodge, there's plenty of stories on YouTube and online about people driving Dodge trucks whose transmission died in less than 20,000 miles, was rebuilt, and died again. At which point, Chrysler would refuse warranty or something similar. I'm sure there's a class action lawsuit somewhere. There's a reason Nissan took the third place best truck seller from Dodge (with the "Titan") : Quality. -----sig: |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Chris Katko said: brakes destroy energy. period. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. What brakes do is convert useful kinetic energy into completely useless heat. -- |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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alethiophile said: What brakes do is convert useful kinetic energy into completely useless heat.
If you consider slowing down and/or stopping useless. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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bamccaig said: The heat itself isn't much use, but it's the byproduct of a useful transfer of energy, so I'd say it serves a purpose...
Yes, it's contributing to global warming, so no more braking!!!
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Sevalecan
Member #4,686
June 2004
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Chris Katko said: My friends new diesel Jetta pulls 55-60 MPG.
I read online a comparison between the new diesel Jetta and a shitty Prius, the jetta did even worse than the Prius' 44 or so MPG.. But I suppose the people reviewing it could've been morons(or perhaps weren't actually comparing the diesel like they said). Now I won't only have to consider a 30 year old vehicle(and thank god, old rabbits in good condition without rust are hard to find). As for everything else, I have no idea what you're rambling about. Newer cars aren't generally larger or heavier. And likely have better aerodynamics. As for newer chrysler transmissions, I suppose I'm not surprised if any of their new 4, 5, or 6 speed automatics suck. Pretty much any big vehicle we've had with a 4 speed automatic needed an overhaul almost constantly, and they were GMs. The only exception is my dad's 95 truck which has a 727 in it with an overdrive extension on the back. Though admittedly my sister's Durango she just got has a transmission leak, I have no idea how many miles are on it, it's not exactly new. TeamTerradactyl: SevalecanDragon: I should shoot you for even CONSIDERING coding like that, but I was ROFLing too hard to stand up. I love it! |
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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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... and I saw a blue Prius. Do you actually have these cars around? Did you know that the vehicle is so light, that if you stick your hand out of the window on a higway the vehicle will tuuuuuuurn? [My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online] |
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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Sevalecan said: I read online a comparison between the new diesel Jetta and a Prius, the jetta did even worse than the Prius' 44 or so MPG.. 1. Prius battery pack is a wearing part and needs to be replaced a few times during the car's lifetime. In this process the old battery pack becomes toxic waste, and the new battery pack costs a lot of money. When servicing is taken into account, the Prius becomes actually less ecological and economical than a modern diesel. 2. Diesel fuel is significantly cheaper than gasoline outside north america. 3. Car journalists as a rule suck at driving economically. 4l/100km is not even difficult task for any diesel car from the last decade. Quote: As for everything else, I have no idea what you're rambling about. Newer cars aren't generally larger or heavier. And likely have better aerodynamics. Unfortunately you're wrong. Most long lasting model lines have in fact, grown up a size class during their life span. Examine the weights of the Volkswagen Golf (that's Rabbit for the north american market): Worth noting that from the 1997 model onwards the Golf's ongoing growth in size caused it to shift class from supermini to small family car. Or how about the competing model range from Peugeot: 1983 205: 750kg, 1993 206: 1025kg, 2007 207: 1250kg. We can even compare Peugeot's large family car range: 1955 403: 1050kg, 1961 404: 1050kg, 1983 405: 1050kg, 1996 406: 1300kg, 2004 407: 1500kg. How about the Toyota Corolla then, it's a nice long-lasting model: 1966: 700kg, 1970: 730kg, 1974: 865g, 1979: 840, 1983: 890kg, 1987: 930kg, 1991: 990kg, 1995: 1100kg, 2000: 1050kg, 2003: 1030kg, 2007: 1220kg. You can see this same development in pretty much any model that has lasted from the early 80's to the present day. You don't deserve my sig. |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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jhuuskon said: Examine the weights of the Volkswagen Golf (that's Rabbit for the north american market) AFAIK, it's been known as both in North America. I think the Rabbit name was limited in use. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Sevalecan said: (and thank god, old rabbits in good condition without rust are hard to find)
And also ugly as hell. Quote: Pretty much any big vehicle we've had with a 4 speed automatic needed an overhaul almost constantly, and they were GMs. The only exception is my dad's 95 truck which has a 727 in it with an overdrive extension on the back. Well, that's because they're GMs. You just need trannies that don't suck. jhuuskon said: Prius battery pack is a wearing part and needs to be replaced a few times during the car's lifetime. In this process the old battery pack becomes toxic waste, and the new battery pack costs a lot of money. When servicing is taken into account, the Prius becomes actually less ecological and economical than a modern diesel. Don't forget that by the time you start to break even on the added cost of buying a hybrid is when the battery pack needs replacement. Hybrids aren't very useful or a good idea IMO. They're just for those rich folk with more bank than brain who want to feel like they're helping the environment without actually doing anything. I say we start driving CNG powered cars - that will buy us time w/o oil worries to start building nuke plants and making hydrogen. bamccaig said: AFAIK, it's been known as both in North America. I think the Rabbit name was limited in use. Most definitely. I had a friend who had a Golf. And it said Golf on the car, not Rabbit. |
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Hybrid cars are a complete marketing lie. Battery technology hasn't arrived. And nobody has bothered to consider how much it costs to replace two drive trains, let alone one. Diesels are great. Stupid people don't like them. Gasoline engines are great, but coupled to horrific cars. Now this is interesting. I found out that the well-to-wheel efficiency (the efficiency of producing power from its original source all the way to your car) is actually horrible for electricity. In the USA, the average petroleum production efficiency is somewhere around 83%, whereas electricity is 30%. [1] So the 190 (gas equivalent) MPG of the Tesla Roadster, is actually reduced to 57 MPG. So everything that the Tesla gives us, is negated by our power infrastructure! And while you can go 0-60 in some 4 seconds, you're still barely getting more efficiency than a hybrid car. Great car. Horrible infrastructure. Sevalecan said: As for everything else, I have no idea what you're rambling about. Newer cars aren't generally larger or heavier. And likely have better aerodynamics. Don't be so quick to call my information rambling. I've been studying cars for years. Not only have cars gotten heavier (which requires more kinetic energy converted to heat every time you brake), they've also gotten larger cross-sectional areas (looking at a car straight on, the width and height taken up). 1996 Sebring drag was .36, and the 2006 Sebring is .34. Firstly, for ten years of development, that improvement is something to be expected from children. I could explain the theory behind "tuft testing" and literal children would have gained more than .02 reduction in drag. Now I don't have the cross sectional area for my 1996 Sebring unfortunately online, the 2006 is 2.33 m^2, HOWEVER, it should be obvious from the following numbers: 1996 Width 69.7 in Height 53.3 in 2006 Width 71.2 in Height 59 in That the cross sectional area is going to be larger on the second. So in ten years, they gained no ground aerodynamically, and managed to make the car look ugly as sin. I took a picture with my Sebring juxtaposed against a new one... but I can't find it yet. More on aerodynamics, the advancement in that field with regard to cars has been almost null. Compare any car to any plane, or any fuel-efficiency competition vehicle, and cars are orders of a magnitude worse. A 1955 Cessna 172M has a Coefficent of Drag of only 0.027. Note the zero on that one. -----sig: |
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Mokkan
Member #4,355
February 2004
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The increase in weight over time might have a lot to do with safety standards. For example, the Volkswagen Golf Mk.1 was a death trap, and I'm guessing the new Golfs are not. Quote: And also ugly as hell. It's an acquired taste..!
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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The Mustang started out as a relatively light (for the time) compact car, which ballooned over the next few years into the fairly large Mustang Mach I. Then the OPEC crisis prompted the uselessly small Mustang II, which has eventually evolved again into a fairly heavy car. I was using a floor jack on one a few years ago to change a motor mount, and was surprised how much effort it took to pump the handle as opposed to, say, a Volvo or Chevy Lumina. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Just one quick addition to clarify this before it expands: Mokkan said: The increase in weight over time might have a lot to do with safety standards. For example, the Volkswagen Golf Mk.1 was a death trap, and I'm guessing the new Golfs are not. It has none to do with safety. Newer cars are safer by design--by correct placement of structural loads. Gas-charged airbags weigh nothing. ABS electronics weigh nothing. Moreover, aluminum block engines cut the weigh of engines by hundreds of pounds over their cast iron counterparts. Plastic manifolds do the same, over aluminum ones. My Jetta has plastic water pump blades (although I do NOT approve of that for durability reasons.) So drive trains are getting lighter, but cars are getting heavier. One of my biggest pet peaves is large rims. The larger the rim, the heavier the rim, the more the unsprung weight of the suspension system. This results in worse feeling and handling of your cars suspension (unsprung inertia has to be moved before the suspension system even begins to follow the road). If big rims were good, why do NO professional race cars use them? Once again, the car companies have settled with form over function (as if 18" rims really looked good to begin with). -----sig: |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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The original reason for large rims was smaller tire sidewalls, to reduce flex and the resultant "peeling" of tread from the tire contact patch with the road. The use of alloys (early use of magnesium lead the the moniker of "mag" wheels) reduces unsprung weight. I wouldn't have most of the aftermarket "gosh, look at me" wheels for sale now though, I've seen the results of a BMW that had fancy wheels actually break while negotiating a gentle curve at 130 mph (210 kph). The resultant ball of twisted sheet metal was pretty much unrecognizable. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I used to watch all of the automotive TV shows that they used to have (predominantly on TNT -> Spike TV) on weekends. And IIRC, they each said that larger rims result in better handling. I assume because of stiffer tires. The downside being ride quality, I assume because there's less give in the tires. I've never had a car with large rims so I can't say. I think large rims look better than standard-sized rims, but they need to suit the car too. Some cars look great with smaller rims. For example, cop cars look good with their traditional rims and would look wrong with large rims. I also think most trucks look silly with large rims. And really, if you want a vehicle with good handling, a large pickup truck is the wrong place to start, so there's little to no performance benefits to it as well. So trucks usually look silly with large rims. Some cars though, predominantly sports cars and tuners, can look awesome with large rims. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Form follows function, not vice-versa. If a new "weird looking" gadget significantly outperforms the previous gadgets, it'll quickly become thought of as "cool" and "good looking". Kind of like that "meh" girl who turns out to know how to make a sammich, suck the chrome off a bumper hitch, doesn't mind you being on the computer 5 hours a day, etc. After you've lived with her a few weeks, (and she doesn't turn out to have a hidden underside) she looks pretty good. But after that comes the less than functional versions that try to differentiate themselves by looking different, regardless of functionality. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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bamccaig said: I used to watch all of the automotive TV shows that they used to have (predominantly on TNT -> Spike TV) on weekends. And IIRC, they each said that larger rims result in better handling. I assume because of stiffer tires. The downside being ride quality, I assume because there's less give in the tires. I've never had a car with large rims so I can't say. Ride softness (all things equal with suspension and car weight) depends on the aspect ratio of the tire. A higher aspect yields a better softness (more travel within the air/rubber than going through the suspension) but yields more tread distortion (and subsequently less road handling adhesion). Bigger tires radially in racing are for increasing the heat dissipation and reducing the heat generated in tire sidewalls. Less sidewall deflection given a certain weight means less internal heat generated from the flexing, and larger tires allow the flexing region longer time to cool before flexing again. Bigger tires sideways don't increase the coefficient of friction (so no more road handling benefit), they only increase the possible area on the ground for that coefficient to occur in as well as spread out the force trying to rip the rubber off. I've heard that with less flex, manufacturers can use harder, better gripping rubber without it suffering from cracking due to sidewall flex. However, I have no source for that. So the benefits of a larger rim size are: Cooling and to a lesser extent, higher probability of reaching the maximum coefficient of friction. The drawbacks, however, are weight and aerodynamics. A wider tire increases your cross sectional area, and creates a larger wake both behind it and from the grooves; which increases your coefficient of drag. The weight is especially important because the quality of your ride can be expressed in the ratio of sprung weight to unsprung weight. The lower the number (the more weight not held up by the suspension), the more the entire body will move given the same amount of suspension travel. In other words, a car with super-light suspension can theoretically move it's tires over bumps without any real force entering the car it suspends. You can drive over any bumps without even feeling it. The more you weigh down your wheels, the more force you're putting into your car before the wheel can react. Another factor is rotational inertia. You engine has to spin up itself, the drive train, and your wheels. The heavier that is, the slower your car accelerates for the same power output and body weight. The inertia of a uniform rotating disc about its axis is I=MR^2. Where M is mass and R is radius. So increasing either of those makes your car slower still. But it's worse for a wheel! A wheel has much more of its mass further from its center than a uniform disc, so the formula changes to something even higher. -----sig: |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Are we talking about width or diameter? -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Softer tires tend to grip better, hence "gumball" drag slicks. For rigid bodies, friction doesn't depend on area so much as pressure and composition of materials. At least, I read that in a book, which urged me to measure friction of pulling a brick across a wooden table in various positions with a spring scale. But tires aren't rigid, so more pressure causes roughness of the road to dig into the tread a little bit, like gear teeth. Also, "dead" rubber (that would make a ball that wouldn't bounce) will absorb energy as the rough points slide along the tread. Reducing unsprung weight is mostly so the weight of the car isn't overwhelmed by the bouncing of the tires mass as you hit bumps. Think of attaching a little plastic model to some regular car tires and roll it across a speed bump. The whole thing will fly up in the air quite easily. Old Cadillacs had a reputation for a smoother ride than the equivalent body style Chevys, because a couple hundred pounds of extra plushness held the car steadier while the tires jumped up and down over potholes and bumps. Since the car is steadier, the springs and shocks can do a much better job of holding the tire to the ground at a relatively steady pressure, which results in better traction. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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bamccaig: I said quite a mouthful and I was still proof-reading my post (hit post too early!) so to clarify: "Radially" is referring to larger diameter tires. This is from a higher aspect ratio, or larger rim size. "Sideways" is referring to the width of the tires. A wider rim uses a wider tire. Arthur Kalliokoski said: But tires aren't rigid, so more pressure causes roughness of the road to dig into the tread a little bit, like gear teeth. Also, "dead" rubber (that would make a ball that wouldn't bounce) will absorb energy as the rough points slide along the tread. However, using that same perspective: Less pressure would result in more molding of the rubber around surfaces, increasing grip. That's why they deflate tires off road. But inflated tire pressure isn't the same thing as a car's weight being put through the tire. So I'm not sure what you're going for here. Quote: Reducing unsprung weight is mostly so the weight of the car isn't overwhelmed by the bouncing of the tires mass as you hit bumps. Think of attaching a little plastic model to some regular car tires and roll it across a speed bump. The whole thing will fly up in the air quite easily. Old Cadillacs had a reputation for a smoother ride than the equivalent body style Chevys, because a couple hundred pounds of extra plushness held the car steadier while the tires jumped up and down over potholes and bumps. That's the ratio I mentioned. Which has a direct correlation to ride quality. If you watch a wheel of a car, they'll move 6 inches up and down constantly just traveling a flat stretch of highway. This is force transmitted straight into the car. This is also why Subaru switched to aluminum A-arms for its WRXes (and maybe others). It reduced the unsprung weight, and bettered the ride quality. If you throw heavy rims and tires given everything-else-is-equal, you will reduce the quality of the ride. Hence, for most cases, heavier rims is a bad idea. -----sig: |
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