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Indiana Jones 4
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I think that the movie has too many flaws for a movie that was in the planning for so long and that had so many script revamps (or so they said) to end up with this.

Too many rewrites rarely improve the script to something where you think the large number of rewrites did any good.

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The Tarzan thing is ridiculous;

Yes, that was very random.

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the scene in the sand trap seemed like a excuse to to tell people that Indy hates snakes, but in a very ridiculous way.

It was a bit over the top, but I didn't have a big problem with it beyond the fact that I don't think snakes like being used as ropes (or have the tensile strength of a rope). But maybe the snake was pulling on Indy at the same time because he wanted to eat him. ;)

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And then, american writers, concerned about the bad influence of media on younger people, decided that Indy's partner Mack, I think being a bad person, deserves to be punished, so they kill him.

I don't think bad media influence has anything to do with it. Belloq died cruelly in Raiders and both Donavan and Elza were killed in Crusade (the first gruesomely).

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But they do it in a REALLY stupid way.

The entire sequence was goofy, so...
As I said, I thought the editing was a bit sloppy, but I can't really put my finger on it.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

What the movie lacked basically is the sense of achievement. In the previous movies, Indy was a hero: he was confronted with incredible mysteries, he solved the riddles and won. In this movie, there are almost no riddles, and therefore no sense of achievement: everything is known almost from the beginning.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Axilmar said:

Indy was a hero: he was confronted with incredible mysteries, he solved the riddles and won. In this movie, there are almost no riddles, and therefore no sense of achievement: everything is known almost from the beginning.

Are you kind of a medium ?

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

It's not about being a medium, it's about the clues given in the story.

For example, when I saw the hole in the door, I immediately knew the skull would have to be placed in it.

When the group was searching the rocks for a mechanism to open, I knew that they would push a level or something.

When I saw the references to Roswell, I immediately knew the whole thing was about aliens.

When I saw Indy in the middle of the desert 10 seconds before the nuclear test, I immediately thought "he should hide in something with a lead casing". At the next frame that I saw the refrigerator, I immediately understood, before Indy making a move, that he will hide in the refrigerator.

These are some of the examples I could give. There are others...this movie really lacked the element of achievement.

A classic moment in the Indiana Jones film is the moment where Indy confronts a fellow with a sword. The guy does a little dancing, showing how capable he is with the sword, but Indy smiles ironically and shoots the guy (this scene is from Raiders of the lost Ark). In the second movie, Indy is confronted with two sword fighters, he simples, he tries to pull out his gun, but the gun is not there! (that's from Temple of Doom). That's a great surprise. What Indy will do next?

Indy 4 had no such material.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

A classic moment in the Indiana Jones film is the moment where Indy confronts a fellow with a sword. The guy does a little dancing, showing how capable he is with the sword, but Indy smiles ironically and shoots the guy

It was orriginally written so that there was a sword fight. But whats his face broke his foot or something prior to shooting that scene, so he just said "I have a gun, why don't I just shoot him?", and thats what they did. Gotta love adlib.

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"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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Or
"The infamous scene in which Indy shoots a marauding and flamboyant swordsman was not in the original script. Harrison Ford was supposed to use his whip to get the swords out of his attacker's hands, but the food poisoning he and the rest of the crew had gotten made him too sick to perform the stunt. After several unsuccessful tries, someone made the off-handed remark, "Why doesn't he just shoot him and get it done and over with?" Steven Spielberg immediately took up the idea and the scene was successfully filmed."

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Or sick. which ever, but as I heard it, it was harrison ford that mentioned it.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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As usual, I was thinking to put a loooooooooong answer, but then I resign.

I will just say that when the first Indy were out, a lot of people there (including me) were young, or very young. Which mean that we didn't have all the brain capacity that we have now.

This lead to the following explanations: there never be any 'hard' clues. It's just that now you find them easier than when you saw the firsts Indy.

Axilmar said:

It's not about being a medium, it's about the clues given in the story.

For example, when I saw the hole in the door, I immediately knew the skull would have to be placed in it.

When the group was searching the rocks for a mechanism to open, I knew that they would push a level or something.

When I saw the references to Roswell, I immediately knew the whole thing was about aliens.

When I saw Indy in the middle of the desert 10 seconds before the nuclear test, I immediately thought "he should hide in something with a lead casing". At the next frame that I saw the refrigerator, I immediately understood, before Indy making a move, that he will hide in the refrigerator.

When I read your post, I immediately know you are a boring guy ;D But I still read you.
Man, WTF with that film ? Didn't you have a good time watching it ? Ha, yeah, I forgot that you immediately known that Indy will win at the first 5 minutes of the film. Wait, isn't he supposed to win each time ? So why going watch such a film if we already know what's going on ?

That's called pleasure. Did you have pleasure watching that film ?

That's enough. Mind that I was wanting to put a short post .

EDIT: IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN INDIANA JONES IF IT WAS A COMPLICATED FILM.

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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As a friend of mine said afterwards: it's very reassuring to know beforehand that the heroes will survive, even if the plunge down a long cascade of waterfalls.
The same goes for the apparent markmanship of the average Russian soldier, or Nazi in the previous films for that matter.

Talking about kicking some Nazi butt, after Indy I had an increadible urge to watch Ace Rimmer again, so enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXYfnWRp1Q0

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

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When I read your post, I immediately know you are a boring guy ;D But I still read you.

I don't post comments in order to entertain other people.

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Man, WTF with that film ? Didn't you have a good time watching it ?

Nope. It sucked. And it was not because I am older now, because I've watched Raiders of the Lost Ark again and it's a vastly superior film.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

And it was not because I am older now, because I've watched Raiders of the Lost Ark again and it's a vastly superior film.

While I may have enjoyed Raiders more than Kingdom, I say your reasoning is suspect. You can take most of the criticism leveled at Kingdom in terms of plot or action and apply it without modification to the previous films. In other words, if Kingdom is less enjoyable than Raiders, it's not because of the plot or the action.

FrankyR
Member #243
April 2000
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Quote:

That's called pleasure. Did you have pleasure watching that film ?

That's enough.

That's my opinion exactly when it comes to movies. I would make a very bad film critic since I seem to enjoy almost every movie I watch. Some people complain about how stupid or poorly acted a movie was and I come out saying it was really funny. They say "it wasn't supposed to be funny" but I figure, "I laughed at it and enjoyed myself, what does it matter what the film makers intended".

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Quote:

While I may have enjoyed Raiders more than Kingdom, I say your reasoning is suspect. You can take most of the criticism leveled at Kingdom in terms of plot or action and apply it without modification to the previous films. In other words, if Kingdom is less enjoyable than Raiders, it's not because of the plot or the action.

Nope. Raiders is a better film in all aspects.

ngiacomelli
Member #5,114
October 2004

Let's just hope they hurry up and make a fifth movie so everyone can say, "Well, it's no Kingdom..."

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Well played Nial ;D

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

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