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xbox 360 + opengl
Albin Engström
Member #8,110
December 2006
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BAF said:

You are increasing their market share. And you are buying games from those evil game makers who use platform specific tools and create games that are only for Windows, which in turn supports Microsoft.

I buy the games because they're good, somehow, i believe that the only reason game developers make games using directX is because they're afraid of going out of business, like you say, windows is the main platform for gamers and due to the extremely bad openGL support from Microsoft I must say that It feels somewhat scary to make games using openGL.

I would stop whining if it wasn't so obvious that Microsoft is going for Monopoly.
I do not see the good things in letting Microsoft getting total control.

BAF said:

It's not an advertisement anymore than PS3 games saying PLAYSTATION 3 or Xbox games saying XBox. It's simply stating "yo, this is a game for windows."

Old games often have a small [PC GAME] label somewhere on the back or at the bottom of the box. I'm not saying I like it when other people display their logos in huge ass text on their products, I'm more than ok with information about what it needs to run existing on the bottom or on newer boxed at the back. Windows 95 or 98 can be read at most of my boxes, with small text on the side or in the requirements section.
A HUGE logo on the front is clearly there for commercial purposes.

[quote ]Seriously? What other console developer has released a free kit that will let you make games as an independent developer for their console? Not to mention that the code is cross-platform from xbox to windows, and soon to the zune.
</quote>
How can you use cross-platform support as an argument to defend windows? :P Microsoft is really good at doing business, they're not focusing on making their products better, they realize that there are more profitable ways of doing business . Both Playstation 3 and Wii supports OpenGL.

Gah! this thread is so depressing :'(.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Quote:

Regardless of whether closed source == evil, Microsoft != 100% Closed Source, they're releasing sources to all kinds of their products and add-ons (I heard .NET 3.0 was going open source soon).

Yeah, that's fine. It does not erase their other sins however. Now if they really end up releasing the sources (in a GPL compatible license no less), then good for them. I highly respect companies that do that (Id is completely awesome in this regard for example, they have released the source to so many of their games, as well as Parallax with the Descent series, Relic with the Homeworld et al).

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Quote:

I buy the games because they're good, somehow, i believe that the only reason game developers make games using directX is because they're afraid of going out of business, like you say, windows is the main platform for gamers and due to the extremely bad openGL support from Microsoft I must say that It feels somewhat scary to make games using openGL.

You are buying games and supporting the developers who chose to use DirectX. Microsoft doesn't provide OpenGL support at all, unless you are using basic video drivers from them. OpenGL/DirectX support is provided by the video card drivers you install.

Quote:

Both Playstation 3 and Wii supports OpenGL.

And yet their SDK/API is closed, so a real lot of good that does. I think an open SDK like XNA is more valuable than wether or not it uses OpenGL under it's skin.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

Quote:

Just because you don't use DirectX directly doesn't mean you don't get a reliance on it. Here's a funny story.. I'm sure most people have seen my post from a while ago about implementing a "native" D3D lib (using OpenGL) on Linux/Unix. In all this time of working on it, though, I've found conspicuously little code that actually uses Direct3D (and thus not much to easilly test my lib), save for the odd tutorial, or a number of engines that supercede D3D in the same way XNA does.

Where is the reliance on it? Obviously your lib doesn't fulfill much of a purpose if you can't find any code to test it with...

I should have specified.. small(ish) apps that have more of a purpose than being a tutorial. As I said, engines (particularly closed source ones) do use D3D, and would benefit. It's just difficult for me to develop it with this all-or-nothing situation. :P

And the reliance is that regardless of how many layers there are between the app and the graphics subsystem, if the final product can only use D3D, the app relies on D3D. It's that simple.

Quote:

Why should anyone care? It works the way it's intended to, so it doesn't really make a difference.

Not working on a potential customer's system isn't intended behavior (I hope). :P Granted, there is a cut-off where some system requirements must be met, but OpenGL vs. D3D isn't an impossible hurdle. They both have the same capabilities, and work with the same target hardware (though one works on more systems than the other..).

Quote:

And I say that hiding DirectX does lower reliance on it, because you are using an intermediate API. That API can be simulated or ported to OpenGL and the apps won't have to even care about the difference.

Or even D3D itself. But that doesn't change the crappy situation we're in now.

Quote:

if you're talking about losing profits to develop the game for Linux, then its FAR from being 100+ percent more people.

Though there's more to it than just getting more customers. There are people that use Linux almost exclusively, but boot into Windows just to play games, or try to play, with varying levels of success, with Wine or some VM. Think of how much happier you'll make those customers by developing for their target OS (lest not forget: happy customers are loyal customers.. loyal customers will come back for repeated bussiness).

Quote:

What about the big bully over at Sony that prevents you from playing their fun games on a Nintendo Wii?

There's a difference in that the Wii is an established console, and developers can and do develop for multiple systems simultaniously (barring the odd exclusive titles). Microsoft prevents competitors from establishing themselves in the first place, or attempts to remove their competitive edge.

Quote:

btw, i don't see how using a pirated version of windows is supporting Microsoft.

I do have to agree with BAF, here. If a game is Windows only, and you steal Windows to play a Windows-only game, you're giving the developers money for making a Windows-only game (which encourages them to make more Windows-only games, thus increasing Microsoft's hold).

Personally, I'll only buy a Windows-only game if it works well in Wine (and is thus not really Windows-only). Would be nice to know if developers/publishers actually track to see who is/how many are using things like Wine to play their games, though.

Quote:

Microsoft doesn't provide OpenGL support at all, unless you are using basic video drivers from them.

Just an aside, to point out the kinds of things I'm talking about. The drivers made by the vendor typically include OpenGL drivers (at least for ATi, nVidia, and Intel). These are the same drivers Microsoft distributes, with the OpenGL driver purposely removed. Make of that what you will.

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Well, any serious gamer gets their driver fix from the vendor, not Microsoft anyway. :-X

Matt Smith
Member #783
November 2000

If the road is clear, I speed :)

Just keep taking the Oxytocin

James Stanley
Member #7,275
May 2006
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Quote:

the only reason indy developers CAN'T use C++, and must use C# is because of the security risk imposed by allowing joe-blow to run a native unsigned binary on his xbox

I don't entirely understand what you mean, but, what?!?!
You're not allowed to run code that you've written on a device that you've purchased?
They consider it a security risk to allow people to write their own programs in a powerful language?
:o

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

You're not allowed to run code that you've written on a device that you've purchased?
They consider it a security risk to allow people to write their own programs in a powerful language?

Because you could theoretically do evil, horrendous, inexplicable things with such hardware access.. such as using a copy of a game to play it (bypassing copy-protection checks).

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Albin Engström
Member #8,110
December 2006
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Kitty Cat said:

Because you could theoretically do evil, horrendous, inexplicable things with such hardware access.. such as using a copy of a game to play it (bypassing copy-protection checks).

I have a question.. if C++ can't be used for developing xbox 360 games how come large developers can? What makes the xbox think: "Here's some C++ code, It's by an large developer so it can pass" ??? If there is a way to play C++ games on the console shouldn't people be able to by-pass the security checks somehow? Also.. are you saying the current copy protection is impossible to break?

While their actions makes some sense in regards to their words i think this is another reason: "We want people to use C#".

Epsi
Member #5,731
April 2005
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Albin Engström: simple answer: those developers are using an official XBOX SDK machine (not XNA) and needs to pay to release official retail games. Do you think that any studio is going to include a tool to play pirated copies in their retail games?

Now, if any body could release unsafe code and execute it on the XBOX, it would probably be hacked within a day.

___________________________________

piccolo: "soon all new 2d alegro games will be better. after i finsh my MMRPG. my game will serve as a code reference. so you can understand and grab code from."
piccolo: "just wait until my invetion comes out its going to take the wii to the next leave of game play. it will run sony and microsoft out of busness if i dont let them use it aswell."

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

I have a question.. if C++ can't be used for developing xbox 360 games how come large developers can? What makes the xbox think: "Here's some C++ code, It's by an large developer so it can pass"

There are a variety of ways to do this, some of which rely on crytographic solutions, some on trademark law and some on disc format.

Re: cryptographics, you can use clever maths so that the XBox 360 knows how to decode part of a disc to look for a particular series of numbers, but a person having knowledge of the drecryption method and the series of numbers doesn't have enough information to know how to encrypt other numbers. It's a similar principle to the way that something like RSA can be used so that your computer knows how to encrypt your credit card details but another computer inbetween that also captured the information on how to encrypt can't work out how to decrypt in a reasonable amount of time. What's more, the machine can be set up so that if any part of the rest of the disc changes then it looks for different numbers. So you can't just copy someone else's. Then Microsoft know how to produce the numbers that allow a particular program to run but no-one else does. See digital signing for a probably better explanation.

Re: trademarks, Microsoft can have the machine check a certain part of the disc for a trademark they own. If anyone else produces a disc which reproduces that trademark then Microsoft can sue them in trademark law. This is used to prevent unlicensed copying.

Re: disc format, it's possible to manufacture discs that aren't like the discs a normal DVD burner would produce. The hardware will only play the game if the discs match this alternative spec. The specific schemes I'm aware of from previous years include:

  • in Atari/Amiga land, you could write data so that it was written, e.g., 10% more densely than the drives on normal machines would write it. The machines would still read these discs because they were within the acceptable timing tolerances. Code could time the loading and refuse to work if it took longer than expected — because that would probably mean that the disc had been duplicated.

  • in the PSOne world, Sony would deliberately write bad sectors in certain places, malformed in certain deliberate ways. Because CD burners can't normally be told to deliberately produce bad sectors, burning an ISO doesn't generally work.

  • the Saturn has an even more elaborate system that, to my knowledge, has not yet been fully decoded. The outer rim of the date side of Saturn discs has a pattern that makes a copyright message to the human eye. Something in that pattern is used by the machine to determine if it is an original disc — though there doesn't seem to be consensus on whether data is hidden in the pattern or if the drive laser is actually used to do a sort of image scan.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Meh, it's probably already been hacked. Someone ask le_y_mistar if the XBOX360 has been hacked.
(I know that the regular old XBOX has been hacked, since my friend has one [we ended up playing Metal Slug last time we played it, which might [or might not] attest to the quality of games on the XBOX :-X)

EDIT: This message was meant to be after Epsi's :P

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

Sure it has been "hacked". Well, AFAIK its just really bypassing the security checks by modding the box with a chip.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

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