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| The "Other Thread" |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Matthew Leverton said: You mean like Thomas Harte?
AFAICT, he hasn't really been participating in the discussion. He has a single post that isn't directly related to IP law. Also, he's a law major? -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Yes, he is. I don't know if he's passed the bar yet, but he has a law education. As for knowledge of IP law in general--I know more than you do about it, bucko. I may not be a law major, but I've taken plenty of classes on the topic as well as quite a bit of private research. -- |
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Also, LAW has as many sub practises as Medical doctors have. You have to specialize in a specific area to be any good in it. So while Thomas may be a Law major, he may not make a good case for any IP case if he hasn't been studying it thoroughly. -- |
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m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
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Copyright does not control how you may use a work. It controls how you may COPY it. COPY as in redistribution. To copy music from your cd to your pc may involve the word "copy" in lay terms, but it is not redistribution in the slightest unless it being on the pc is a form of distribution. "but what if someone else comes along and listens to it, copies it off" then that is redistribution, or broadcast, and that is the act that infringes, not the copying from cd->computer. Remember, this is not copy as in "the laser of the cd drive copies information off the cd and sends it through the wire to the speaker which copies it into the air which is then copied by your nerves in your ear, etc", but about redistributing the work to others. Untill another person has it, then it hasn't been redistributed. And the moment the other person gets it, it was that explicit link that was infringing the copyright, NOT anything else that made it happen, HOWEVER you would probably have to argue that in a court, as it is the sort of thing a judge should decide on. Because they may argue that the prior things were a part of the redistribution process, whereas in reality they were a part of use. And copyright cannot in any way controll usage. You may enter into a contractual agreement that controlls your usage of something, and that is what many products would like to imply (EULA's and the like) but that is not copyright law. Quote: I very much doubt that the million-dollar music industry will be crippled by a few people sharing songs. Will be crippled? Don't you mean IS crippled? That you very much doubt that the billion-dollar music industry IS crippled by people sharing songs. Because, as I seem to recall, that is what people are doing. This is like the issue of gun control. Figuratively speaking, to the pro-"IP" crowd (that is the people that commonly state they are pro-IP but I suspect are really pro-aristocracy), you DO NOT have the option of no infringements, as they exists regardless of the law. ALL you can do is punish people for not abiding by your views of how they should live their lives, which IIRC is not what they elected you to do. How very aristocatic of you, how very statist. Yes there are finer points here, and I wish that people would be honest about these points, instead of ignoring them while spewing incoherent bs and doing whatever they want. People should pay due compensation for any unauthorized redistribution of copyrighted works? YES I totally agree. But: People have no say in my unjust immoral laws and must bow down to my authority? Your usage of "my" property that you payed for is very unbecomming, someone else could just come along and grab a copy, but no I won't try you for that actual infringement, i'll just say that you can't have it like that at all, so then it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to infringe! Why would you want music on a computer, WHAT IF YOU INFRINGED "MY" RIGHTS! You're why we can't have good things, no such usage for you! AFTER ALL I AM YOUR LORD, YOU DARE TO DEFY ME? People have been taken to court for pedantic frivilous reasons, there have been many such stories on slashdot look it up sometime. THAT is a real problem IMHO, i believe that legislation should be written to curb this threat to civilised society. Or is that unreasonable? How about these other laws such as the DMCA? If they exist then surely that is a precedent to consider in the level of scope and intrusiveness of laws, or are we just unworthy? (\ /) |
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote: Because, as I seem to recall, that is what people are doing. The Music industry was doomed before p2p caught on. Record sales were down, and they had no explanation till the internet caught on and people could actually get what they wanted at a decent price. Their only other choice was to pay the for a $25 CD that may or may not have any good music on it. If you don't give the consumer what it wants, it'll find a way to get it with or without you. The labels killed their own industry by locking it up and being too inflexible. -- |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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m c said: Copyright does not control how you may use a work. It controls how you may COPY it. COPY as in redistribution. Technically, since every action you could take relating to a copyrighted work on the computer creates a copy (even if just in RAM), they can regulate anything, really. -- |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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@m c: Music licensing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia said: Music licensing is the licensed use of copyrighted music. Music licensing is intended to ensure that the creators of musical works get paid for their work. A purchaser of recorded music owns the media on which the music is stored, not the music itself. A purchaser has limited rights to use and reproduce the recorded work. - Source -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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I don't sanction commercial piracy (the only type for which I use the word), because they're making money off someone else's creativity. However, non-commercial illicit copying and the completely legal and harmless things like writing search engines that the RIAA etc have been suing people for is not a problem, in my view. -- |
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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Licensing music, owning music, and owning a copy of the music are three different things. Licensing music is something you see music studios do to give them limitted redistributable rights (eg. a previously-made song for the end credits of a movie, or otherwise as part of a movie's soundtrack). Owning the music is something only the creator can do (unless you're the RIAA and wrestle it from them). Owning a copy of the music is something you do when you buy a CD. Each of the three gives you different limits on what you can do. Quote: A purchaser has limited rights to use and reproduce the recorded work. Notice it doesn't say you can't make a copy (eg. CD to HD). Just that you have a limitted (as opposed to non-existant) right to reproduce it. -- |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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The "Copyright Clause" of the Constitution, which is, or should be, the basis of all our copyright law, is shown below. Quote: The Congress shall have the Power...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries Note it says nothing about protecting the rights of creators; the purpose is "to promote the progress of science and useful arts". It also says nothing about "property" or "ownership" of creative content; it refers to "the exclusive right". This just is contrast to people such as Jack Valenti's ridiculous claim that copyright holders should have the same rights to their "property" as physical property owners. -- |
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Gr4|\|f
Member #9,499
February 2008
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Of course, one could argue that it would not be promoting the progress of science, art, and technology to NOT restrict the redistribution of their works, at least for a limited time. Do you know nothing of capitalism? if there were no laws protecting the rights of people as creators, and therefore no laws keeping others from sucking away their profits by redistributing them on the day of release, there would be no incentive left in America to create, as it wouldn't be feeding families anymore, or at least not as well. Trust me, this happened in Russia. Ping me @ 127.0.0.1 |
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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote: if there were no laws protecting the rights of people as creators, and therefore no laws keeping others from sucking away their profits by redistributing them on the day of release, there would be no incentive left in America to create By contrast, being exposed to people's creative works helps other people create. Coming up with music by watching movies and/or listening to music, for example. Getting "into the groove" of creating by listening/watching something that sparks the imagination, is paramount for progressing arts and sciences. -- |
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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Quote: there would be no incentive left in America to create I didn't realize America was so devoid of creative people that every single creator in the country does so explicitly for monetary reasons, and refuses to create anything if there isn't a dollar in it for him. As far as I'm concerned, greedy bastards like that can rot. Whatever happened to doing something because you cherish the creative endeavor? (I didn't say anything about getting paid for what you do. But your argument that "there's no incentive to create" is distustingly false. People of talent and drive will create regardless of whether there's a promise of money at the end of it or not. The only people who will stop doing so are the mindless drones that we can honestly do without anyway.) -- |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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gr4/\/f said: if there were no laws protecting the rights of people as creators, and therefore no laws keeping others from sucking away their profits by redistributing them on the day of release, there would be no incentive left in America to create, as it wouldn't be feeding families anymore, or at least not as well. I am quite aware of that, and that's why you need copyright at all. The idea was to make it clear that copyright was not originally intended in the end to protect the rights of artists (it's a means to an end), and that copyright was never and should never be construed as a form of property--at least not in any way comparable to physical property. -- |
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Gr4|\|f
Member #9,499
February 2008
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Quote: I didn't realize America was so devoid of creative people that every single creator in the country does so explicitly for monetary reasons, and refuses to create anything if there isn't a dollar in it for him. The Human Race is inherantly evil* *greedy Ping me @ 127.0.0.1 |
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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I write this in all my files: Quote: copyright © 2008 by Vann Neto
Does this make me a Greedy Bastard®™ ? In capitalist America bank robs you. |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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No. -- |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Quote: I didn't realize America was so devoid of creative people that every single creator in the country does so explicitly for monetary reasons, and refuses to create anything if there isn't a dollar in it for him. Well, if you have to bust your ass 50 to 60 hours a week at a regular job just to support the bureaucracy and Bush's war, there isn't a whole lot of time to be "creative". Unless you get compensated for that time so as to quit your regular job. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Kevin S. Brady, Attorney at Law - Copyright Myths and Misconceptions FAQ Kitty Cat said: Notice it doesn't say you can't make a copy (eg. CD to HD). Just that you have a limitted (as opposed to non-existant) right to reproduce it.
Notice that it doesn't say that you can either. Kitty Cat said: By contrast, being exposed to people's creative works helps other people create. So why shouldn't that help come at a reasonable fee? X-G said: I didn't realize America was so devoid of creative people that every single creator in the country does so explicitly for monetary reasons, and refuses to create anything if there isn't a dollar in it for him. You might as well STFU if you're not going to contribute anything useful. Firstly, it isn't just American artists that rely on their IP to make a living. People from all over the world do. Secondly, many or most artists enjoy producing the art they do, but they can't continue to do it without being paid for it. The cost of living is [almost?] never free. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote: So why shouldn't that help come at a reasonable fee?
Keyword being reasonable. -- |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Kitty Cat said: Is it reasonable for the copyright holder to set the fee? Why? Yes, it is reasonable for the copyright holder to set the fee. The IP is his own and you have no implied right to use it. Agree to his terms of use or don't use it. Nobody has the right to force the copyright owner to allow you to use it. It would be most profitable for the copyright owner to set the price at whatever cost gets him the maximum profit, the same as any other business venture. Therefore, he has every right to set the price to that (or higher, if he wants; though it doesn't help anybody). Some people make it sound like their sale matters, but in reality if the set price gets the maximum profit then your sale doesn't matter. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote: Yes, it is reasonable for the copyright holder to set the fee. Then copyright/IP isn't about advancing art and sciences, it's about money. Granted, Arthur Kalliokoski has a point with creators being compensated so they actually have time to create, but even then it's not explicitly about money, it's about surviving (which just happens to be done with money). If a creator makes something, and prices it so highly that nobody's willing to buy it, how would the situation for the creator be any different than if everyone got it for free? -- |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Kitty Cat said: If a creator makes something, and prices it so highly that nobody's willing to buy it, how would the situation for the creator be any different than if everyone got it for free?
Right. So why the fuck would the creator do that?* * Answer: he/she wouldn't**. ** Unless they had other motives than money, which is completely within their right. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote: So why the fuck would the creator do that? Just so nobody else can do it, too. There are companies get/buy patents and copyrights just for the purpose of extorting money. -- |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Note that originally, copyright had no effect on derivative works, simply on verbatim copies of the content. I think that the original US copyright laws (no effect on derivative works, no effect on non-commercial copying, term 14 years unless author renewed for a further 14) are far more reasonable than the bloated, draconian idiocy we have today. -- |
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