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The "Other Thread"
alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Kibiz0r said:

It's tempting to question the legitimacy of current IP law as a whole, but that's another thread. ;)

OK, what do people think of intellectual property laws/enforcement in the world right now? the US treats it stupidly, IMO, but I don't know about other countries.

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Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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I think IP has gotten out of hand. It's essentially supposed to prevent other people from stealing your idea and competing with you. But the effect it seems to have now is to let IP-holders fence their stuff off and, in some respect, get paid for the fact that they have an IP rather than what the IP is.

Example: I heard a song by an indie artist and liked it, so I looked for a torrent of all his songs. But I couldn't find one, so I bought the album online instead. The album mostly sucked. So he got my money for nothing, just because he had an IP, not because the IP was worth the money I paid for it.

I think consumers can understand that artists need revenue to survive, and if they want to hear/see more from an artist/studio, they need to support them somehow. I think consumers also don't like the idea of the profit from a CD going mainly to record execs and people that had nothing to do with actually making the music.

It's just silly. In order to hear some music -- so I know if it's worth buying -- I need to buy it or pirate it, and in the latter case they can sue me and get 1000x the real value anyways.

Brazilian artists release the album directly to the street vendors to make and sell copies, and they never see a dime from it. The CDs are just promotion for live shows.

Nigeria has a huge film business, but they don't have a copyright law!

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Outdated, outmoded, enforced far too draconially, abused far beyond even its original intent and in ways highly detrimental to society, increasingly controlled by a corporate lobby not acting in the best interest of society as a whole, and in desperate need of reform.

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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Also, the DMCA bans circumvention of DRM, so corporations can basically make their own rules, write DRM that (maybe) protects them, and then have them enforced by the federal gvmt.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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The term "piracy" implies a moral equivalence between unauthorized copying and attacking ships. Is that appropriate?

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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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<quote name="Copyright Infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia#The term "piracy"">
The practice of labeling the act of infringement as "piracy" actually predates copyright itself. Even prior to the 1709 enactment of the Statute of Anne, generally recognized as the first copyright law, the Stationers' Company of London in 1557 received a Royal Charter giving the company a monopoly on publication and tasking it with enforcing the charter. Those who violated the charter were labeled pirates as early as 1603.

For electronic and audio-visual media, unauthorized reproduction and distribution is occasionally referred to as piracy or theft (an early reference was made by Alfred Tennyson in the preface to his poem "The Lover's Tale" in 1879 where he mentions that sections of this work "have of late been mercilessly pirated").

The legal basis for this usage dates from the same era, and has been consistently applied until the present time. Critics of the use of the term "piracy" to describe such practices contend that it unfairly equates copyright infringement with more sinister activity, though courts often hold that under law the two terms are interchangeable.
</quote>
- Source.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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The term has a significant basis, but by using the term commonly (we assume that the majority of people are ignorant of the basis of the term), it still implies an equivalence.

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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Well, it may be wrong to imply the two are equivalent, but it does make them both sound equally cool :)
Do you think Ninja'ing (in MMORPGs) is popular only because it profits the Ninja? Don't you think it has something to do with how cool being a Ninja seems? :P

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Don't know what that means. And "piracy" may sound cool when you say it, but when the term is used consistently in Senate hearings and etc, it biases lawmakers toward stronger copyright laws.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Especially heinous is the way that certain lobbyists like to imply that filesharing is somehow linked to real, serious organized crime such as drug trade, human trafficking, arms smuggling, etc.

Now, doubtless there are organized crime groups that deal in commercial software piracy and use it to fund other operations. This is especially common in the second world. But to imply that that's in any way typical, especially in the western world, is ludicrous, misleading, and nefarious. Most people are ordinary people sharing files with friends over peer-to-peer services and are just as appalled by organized crime as you and I. The link is frivolous, and it's extremely dishonest of lobbyists to try to make this link.

The sad part is people may be buying it.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Quote:

Most people are ordinary people sharing files with friends over peer-to-peer services and are just as appalled by organized crime as you and I.

Substitute friends with complete strangers and I agree. 8-)

Frank Griffin
Member #7474
July 2006

Piracy is wrong but I dont think you should go to jail unless you are a reseller of the property. If a guy downloads 5.2 million songs how many can he really use. If this same guy starts selling these songs at school then we have a problem.

Without IP many ideas will die on the vine.

"gut feeling the people in England are poor" -Samuli
"taken out of context it's an awesome quote" - Jonatan Hedborg

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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I think that any conceivable benefits from IP in terms of more creative ideas are vastly overshadowed by the harm in terms of less creative ideas (that is, inability to create derivative works, etc).

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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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X-G said:

Especially heinous is the way that certain lobbyists like to imply that filesharing is somehow linked to real, serious organized crime such as drug trade, human trafficking, arms smuggling, etc.

Could you cite your sources? I've never heard of that before... Moreso, you're acting like the lawmakers are mindless drones. They're people like you and me (most of them) and they understand the difference between piracy and especially heinous crimes.

Frank Griffin said:

Piracy is wrong but I dont think you should go to jail unless you are a reseller of the property.

IP is the foundation of a number of industries. If you make it permitted to openly copy and distribute it at no cost then these industries disappear and so do the products. AFAIK, typical piracy will only result in large fines if you are caught -- no jail time that I've heard of.

imaxcs
Member #4,036
November 2003

Quote:

They're people like you and me (most of them) and they understand the difference between piracy and especially heinous crimes.

Then why is it called "piracy"? Just because it's cool? I doubt that...

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Quote:

Substitute friends with complete strangers and I agree.

Sure. It doesn't change my argument.

Quote:

Could you cite your sources?

Absolutely. One of the earliest sources is a 2003 report shown to the House where Department of Justice attorney general John G. Malcolm testified about "organized crime groups called warez groups", and MPAA president Jack Valenti claimed links between 9/11 and file sharing:

Quote:

America's crown jewels -- its intellectual property -- are being looted. Organized, violent, international criminal groups are getting rich from the high gain/low risk business of stealing America's copyrighted works. We don't know to what end the profits from these criminal enterprises are put. US industry alone will never have the tools to penetrate these groups or to trace the nefarious paths to which those profits are put. For these reasons it is entirely suitable and necessary that the Subcommittee ... hold this hearing and illuminate the nature of the problems and the effect on the copyright industries ... September 11 changed the way Americans look at the world. It also changed the way American law enforcement looks at Intellectual Property crimes.

He also said the following:

Quote:

... only when governments around the world effectively bring to bear the full powers of the state against these criminals can we expect to make progress ... violent highly organized criminal groups are getting rich from the theft of America's copyrighted products.

As well as this:

Quote:

Pirates also employ violence and intimidation... Pirates have directly threatened Government leaders.

And remember, this isn't some small fry. This is the president of the Motion Picture Association of America. Testifying before Congress. Here is an article about the event.

More recently, just last year the IFPI accused filesharers of funding terrorism:

Quote:

Organized criminal gangs and even terrorist groups use the sale of counterfeit CDs to raise revenue and launder money.

Again, this is an official lobbying organization pretty much outright accusing filesharers of supporting terrorism, a highly politically charged and nefarious thing to say these days. Yes, I know, technically what they're saying right there is true; but the way it's being put forward, especially as part of that list there, is painting a very ugly and deliberately misleading picture of what's actually going on. Muddling the lines in order to make it seem like everyone who downloads stuff on the Internet is tacitly supporting murderous criminals is exactly what they want to achieve.

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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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The whole idea is to try to get people to stop thinking of copyrighted work as belonging to the public, which was the original intention of copyright according to the Constitution and precedent, and start thinking of it as belonging to the copyright owners. The idea of data ownership is preposterous, as copies can easily be made. This is why I will now stop using the term "intellectual property", because it predisposes the debate in favor of the idea that you can "own" data.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

IP is the foundation of a number of industries. If you make it permitted to openly copy and distribute it at no cost then these industries disappear and so do the products.

No one is saying get rid of IP. They are however saying the current rules MAKE NO SENSE.

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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imaxcs said:

Then why is it called "piracy"? Just because it's cool? I doubt that...

Yes, in 1603 they thought that the word "piracy" was "cool". ;) Pirating (stealing) intellectual property is related to stealing tangible property... It makes sense to call it pirating, IMO...

X-G said:

Absolutely.

You seemed to quote things out of thin air... Links would be nice... :-/

X-G said:

...the IFPI accused filesharers of funding terrorism...

How do you know none of them are? ???

X-G said:

Muddling the lines in order to make it seem like everyone who downloads stuff on the Internet is tacitly supporting murderous criminals is exactly what they want to achieve.

Thankfully you can read minds and won't be fooled.

alethiophile said:

The whole idea is to try to get people to stop thinking of copyrighted work as belonging to the public, which was the original intention of copyright...

What!? ::)

Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia said:

Copyright – symbolized "©" – is a legal concept, enacted by most governments, giving the creator of an original work exclusive rights to it, usually for a limited time.

- Source

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

giving the creator of an original work exclusive rights to it, usually for a limited time.

Fixed.

That was the true intent. corporate lobbyists however have changed the meaning through insane changes to the law.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

Arr, I be a pirate, would ye like to join my crew? and come sailing on my illegal-unauthorized-Copyright-infringement vessel.

On a more sensible note.

Thomas Fjellstrom said:

That was the true intent. corporate lobbyists however have changed the meaning through insane changes to the law.

An example to back Thomas...

The Walt Disney Company (TWDC) pushed hard for the Copyright Term Extension Act., Copyright is designed to protect the author, Disney died a long time ago, and the early Mickey Mouse cartoons were going to lose their Copyright. (Mickey still would be a trademark, so people still wouldn't be able to use his likeness.) TWDC didn't want this to happen, so they changed laws just to protect their own financial interests. It doesn't really matter much to Disney if the works become public domain or not, he isn't here to benefit. TWDC just want to protect their wallets.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Source text, being the testimony of Jack Valenti.

Quote:

That was the true intent.

Actually, that is incorrect. Copyright was established by the Statute of Anne, and was, from day one, intended to protect the distributors of works. It's a common misconception that copyright is intended to protect the creator of the work, but it isn't and it never has been.

Append: Also, heh, I was attending a talk by RMS the other week, where someone asked what his thoughts on piracy were, and he said "Well, I think attacking ships is awful."

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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You are correct, the original original intent was to protect the publisher, as at one time, publishing a book was very costly. Without any kind of protection, publishers would have no incentive.

It was meant to provide limited incentive to create.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Don't forget, publishing was also a "pirate" medium once. Information used to be locked up for only the elite to access, and the printing press made it available to everyone (who could read).



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