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The "Other Thread"
alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Why should software be the way it is?

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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alethiophile said:

Why should software be the way it is?

Why shouldn't the author own explicit rights to his own work?

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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"Intellectual property" is a contradiction in terms. I accept copyright as it was originally intended as an incentive to create more creative work, but as it is now it is unconscionable. I see no reason why we should have to check our every action that is anything to do with songs or software with the draconian EULAs that they force on us.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Why shouldn't the author own explicit the rights to his own work?

To what end?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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alethiophile said:

"Intellectual property" is a contradiction in terms.

No, it's not. Perhaps as somebody that doesn't own any you don't understand the need to have it protected.

alethiophile said:

I accept copyright as it was originally intended as an incentive to create more creative work,...

As I think was already mentioned, copyright was originally intended to protect distributors from rival distributors. This was during a time where consumers couldn't practically copy IP so it wasn't a consideration. As photocopiers and tape players became available the laws were extended to prevent consumers from making copies as well. It is just as illegal to photocopy an entire book as it is to duplicate an entire song.

AFAIK, copyright was never intended to encourage more creative works.

Thomas Fjellstrom said:

To what end?

Whatever end he wishes. It was the result of the author's investment. Why should anybody have the right to take it away from them? Expecting IP to be free sounds communistic to me... :-/

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

As I think was already mentioned, copyright was originally intended to protect distributors from rival distributors.

that was the effect, that wasn't the intent.

Quote:

Why should anybody have the right to take it away from them?

So now you have to agree to it before you've read it, and it could say ANYTHING.

Personally, when I buy a peice of software, I own a copy. what gives them the right to say its just a lease?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Thomas Fjellstrom said:

So now you have to agree to it before you've read it, and it could say ANYTHING.

That is obviously untrue. Either the agreement should be made available beforehand or means for return/refund should be enforced if the consumer doesn't agree to the terms of use.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

That is obviously untrue. Either the agreement should be made available beforehand or means for return/refund should be enforced if the consumer doesn't agree to the terms of use.

Not according to your logic.

edit:
Oh and not to mention the standard clause that states they can change the licence at any time without notice.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Thomas Fjellstrom said:

Not according to your logic.

At what point did I ever say you had to agree to terms without reading them? >:(

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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I have written this paragraph. It is automatically under my copyright. By copying it to your computer (including by cache, memory or disk), you are bound by its terms. You agree to send me $1,000,000,000 within one day. If you do not agree to these terms, do not copy this work to your system.

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Whatever end he wishes. It was the result of the author's investment. Why should anybody have the right to take it away from them?

Thats your logic.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Kitty Cat said:

I have written this paragraph. It is automatically under my copyright. By copying it to your computer (including by cache, memory or disk), you are bound by its terms. You agree to send me $1,000,000,000 within one day. If you do not agree to these terms, do not copy this work to your system.

It requires a little bit of common sense to follow. If you're going to be stupid about it, you might as well STFU.

By posting anything on the Web you have already permitted anybody with direct access to it to have a copy stored on their system, at the very least.

Thomas Fjellstrom said:

Thats your logic.

If that was your answer to my question it has nothing to do with forcing a user to agree to terms of use without reading them.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

By posting anything on the Web you have already permitted anybody with direct access to it to have a copy stored on their system, at the very least.

It amounts to the same thing.

Quote:

If that was your answer to my question it has nothing to do with forcing a user to agree to terms of use without reading them.

Sure it does, since the author/artist/whatever can do what ever he wants!

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Thomas Fjellstrom said:

Sure it does, since the author/artist/whatever can do what ever he wants!

I never said the author can do whatever he wants, period.

I said:

Why shouldn't the author own explicit rights to his own work...[to] whatever end he wishes...? It was the result of the author's investment. Why should anybody have the right to take it away from them? Expecting IP to be free sounds communistic to me... :-/

The author should have control over the use of his own material, but it would obviously need to be something the consumer/user could agree to beforehand.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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bamccaig said:

[quote alethiophile]
"Intellectual property" is a contradiction in terms.

No, it's not. Perhaps as somebody that doesn't own any you don't understand the need to have it protected.
</quote>
I actually do own IP, and when it's actually finished and available I have no qualms about making it public domain. The "your opinions are invalid because you have no experience" tack isn't going to cut it here.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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alethiophile said:

I actually do own IP, and when it's actually finished and available I have no qualms about making it public domain. The "your opinions are invalid because you have no experience" tack isn't going to cut it here.

It's not really the same thing if you don't rely on that IP to make a living or don't think highly enough of the IP to demand that it's origins remain intact. If it's just hobbyist software you're writing or perhaps hobbyist music or video or whatever, that's not really applicable because you're probably already permitting people to use it freely.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Personally I think its absolute bull shit to do things such as the content industry does now. Making it illegal to record a football game to vhs? Or watch with a really big tv? Totall bull shit.

If they only pulled their heads out of thier asses for a moment, theyd realize they aren't selling and marketing to pirates. They are infact trying to sell to the Masses, who will all happily pay for things that they want. The types of protections put in place on media and software (like games), are to protect against people who they aren't even trying to sell to! How in the world does that make sense? In the end those protections only make it harder and more complicated for thier target audience to use.

Do you really think its fair to pay for a DVD, only to have to pay again to watch it the next day? And pay again to watch it on your PSP? And then to make a backup copy so you don't have to buy the media again, just so you can pay to watch it again?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Quote:

Do you honestly believe that people will be so generous when everything is free?

If they don't contribute, there won't be any more music. Free market. You determine what succeeds by what you choose to fund. Of course there's going to be a transition period, but there has been for anything like this.

Yaknow, this isn't a new problem we're facing. It's the same problem we saw with the printing press, cable box, and VCR.

Forget whether it's fair, moral, legal, or whatever high-ground argument you want to use. The simple fact is that it isn't working. Consumers evolve, producers evolve. If they don't, they die out.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Thomas Fjellstrom said:

Making it illegal to...watch with a really big tv?

I've never heard of this before... Do enlighten me.

Thomas Fjellstrom said:

Do you really think its fair to pay for a DVD, only to have to pay again to watch it the next day?

Do you pay everyday for your DVDs? I think you're being scammed... :-/

Thomas Fjellstrom said:

The types of protections put in place on media and software (like games), are to protect against people who they aren't even trying to sell to! How in the world does that make sense?

Actually, the protections put in place on media and software are to protect against the people they are trying to sell to; by preventing them from pirating it you force them to buy the product or go without. You also enforce in the minds of ethical people that it's not OK to just pirate the product who would otherwise feel free to do so. At the very least, you make it more trouble to pirate than it would have been without the protection. It usually interferes with legal consumers when things go wrong or are overlooked (as a software developer you should know that this kind of thing happens) or when consumers assume rights that aren't actually permitted.

Kibiz0r said:

It's the same problem we saw with the printing press, cable box, and VCR.

It remains illegal to make copies of books and movies... I don't really see where the cable box comes into play, but then I don't really know what it is you're referring to...

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Do you pay everyday for your DVDs? I think you're being scammed... :-/

Not yet. But IIRC its in the BD+/BluRay spec :) pay per play! And time limited media.

Quote:

by preventing them from pirating it you force them to buy the product or go without.

Sorry. I don't buy it. Its just too much trouble for most people to bother with attempting to copy crap. They'd rather pay for it, and have it "just work", than play around with pirating it and have it "maybe" work. The people that actually do pirate stuff, will go to rather extreme ends to copy something. Buying specialist hardware (Macrovision anyone?), duplicating VHS decks, DVD duplicators, etc. Try getting my dad to download and burn a DVD iso off the internet and see if you have the patience :P Most consumers are like that. They buy something they want, and WANT it to just work. ThThat'st. The few people willing to pirate stuff can't be stopped short of killing them all.

Quote:

It remains illegal to make copies of books and movies...

Originally, it was only for a relatively short period of time. 10 years or less. These days, since Disney Corp. bribed a few senators, its seemingly indefinite (they keep getting the time limit extended).

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Quote:

I don't really know what it is you're referring to...

Every time there's been a technological innovation, the incumbent industry has always cried out "No! That is piracy, and it will destroy us!"

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

They'd rather pay for it, and have it "just work", than play around with pirating it and have it "maybe" work.

Which is kinda sad when you realize that the illegal ISO downloads are more user-friendlier than the bought media (people will actually download an ISO of a game they bought just so they don't have to deal with the crap on the disc). Why do I need the damn disc in the drive when I start a game that doesn't need to use the disc?

Quote:

Actually, the protections put in place on media and software are to protect against the people they are trying to sell to; by preventing them from pirating it you force them to buy the product or go without.

If a product is good enough, people will pay for it. Even if they illegally download a game, play it and decide they like it, then either send a sizable donation or buy a copy to leave shelved.

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Which is kinda sad when you realize that the illegal ISO downloads are more user-friendlier than the bought media

Well, in that case, those gamers are somewhat tech literate.. If we talk "most people" here, even going and trying to download the iso would make my dad give up. Especially if its some p2p program.. and then trying to figure out a burning program so he can watch whatever he downloaded on his DVD player? Not going to happen. He'd much rather spend the 10-20$ for the disk at Wall Mart or where ever, than spend the time to figure out some stupid software to get it free.

edit:

I've personally pirated many things since I started using computers. It started with a copy of Win98. No joke. I will however pay for things I WANT. I pay for a subscription to lwn.net, I pay for the occasional movie, some music from magnatune, but generally not for things that assume I'm a dirty stinking pirate. I won't support the big conglomarate money grab.

You know where the recent ditch of DRM in the music industry started? With RMI. Just after a venture capitalist purchaced them outright and took them private to get them solvent again. Someone with some actual business sense realized people don't want what they were being offered.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

Well, in that case, those gamers are somewhat tech literate.. If we talk "most people" here, even going and trying to download the iso would make my dad give up. Especially if its some p2p program.. and then trying to figure out a burning program so he can watch whatever he downloaded on his DVD player? Not going to happen. He'd much rather spend the 10-20$ for the disk at Wall Mart or where ever, than spend the time to figure out some stupid software to get it free.

Depends on how its set up. It's easy to set up something like Alcohol 120% or something to right-click an ISO to mount it to a virtual drive and auto-run it. No burning or anything, and no mucking around with discs..

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham



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