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Gater!!!
GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Old.

It is not a new thing that Christians who abuse their mind with unbelievable belief are unbelievably silly ;-)
;D

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SonShadowCat
Member #1,548
September 2001
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Wagner: If you read a few posts down from that, you will see the son in fact killed himself.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Quote:

But we are talking about religion here, which is the only thing that talks about supernatural entities anyway. In the context of religion, God is defined as omnipotent, infinitely good, infinitely wise etc.

I think you need to study more religions.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Yeah, the "omnipotent, infinitely good, infinitely wise etc." part is mostly for monotheistic religions.
(According to my bible* teacher, the ancient Jews showed a lot of cleverness by being the first to come up with the concept of a single omnipotent incomprehensible god.)
*-blah old testament whatever etc. Just assume from now on that when I say "bible" I don't mean the new testament.

SonShadowCat
Member #1,548
September 2001
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Edit: I mis-understood and said something that didn't matter.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Oh my gosh, this thread is still alive? Wow, when I stumbled upon it, I realised that it originated around Christmas. I can't believe that we cannot learn from previous mistakes and still arguing about useless things like if there's a god, flying spaghetti monster, the great A'Tuin or whatever.

Essentially discussions of this type are pointless because religious people won't stand off their arguments and from believing into some unhuman entity. As well as the people on the other side of the barricade, who claim that there's no god.

I for myself seriously doubt that there is something like a god - we simply have too many religions with different points of view, so in my opinion none of them can be right. But anyway there are some, well actually lots of people, who need something to believe in - some faith. And here is in what religion, besides controlling masses of people in the past and somehow in the present, giving something you can believe in. Something what will give you a meaning of life, if you don't have anything other to believe in.

So those are my two cents. And if you disagree, see my signature (as usual).

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

amber
Member #6,783
January 2006
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Quote:

But we are talking about religion here

No, "we" aren't. You are.
As I've stated numerous times, I'm talking about the existence or nonexistence of supernatural beings/gods/whatever regardless of what human religions think of it.

Quote:

Quote:

If they're wrong, that only means their concept of god is wrong. It is not general proof that no such being at all exists.

It is not, but by admitting so we eliminate 99% of the reasons for the being's existence.

No, you eliminate 99% of the reasons for that religion's existence.
The being itself will continue to exist or not exist regardless of what any human religion thinks of it.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Huckabee wants to abolish the separation of State and Church:

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Huckabee_Amend_Constitution_to_meet_Gods_0115.html

We are heading straight to a new middle ages...

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

Well he ain't getting voted. :P

Or is he? No... I'm quite sure he wont be. :D

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Huckabee is a Southern Baptist pastor!, so I think you should know what his views are on the "hot" social topics—and most Presidents try to impress their personal views (regardless of their origins) on everything via their policies.

I don't know the context of the quote, but surely it's a direct reference to gay marriage and abortion. And of course that means he would favor constitutional amendments that 1) define marriage as between one man and one woman and 2) give unborn children the right to not be killed.

There's nothing shocking about that; Bush (along with significant number of people) favors those two things. Huckabee just is more straightforward with his rhetoric, which is good because you know what you are getting. I really doubt he'll win the Republican nomination because there's no chance he'll beat any of the Democrats.

And even if he did, you don't have to worry about the Constitution. Thirty-eight states have to approve before anything is ratified.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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I think that yes, that quote is meant to apply to gay marriage/abortion, but it is still troubling. Religious views should not affect policy.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Quote:

Religious views should not affect policy.

That's a circular objection, but one that many people (religious or not) like to make.

It's nearly impossible to separate "religious" views from any kind of "personal" views, or however you want to name them. You have certain ideas that you hold; so do I. But neither of us could necessarily pinpoint the exact source of them. Over our lifetimes, we've come to believe what we do now.

There are non-religious people who are against abortion. So is it okay for them to lobby to amend the Constitution to give the unborn explicit rights? If you say yes (I don't mean you have to agree with their position), then surely it's okay for a religious person to want to do the same. The ultimate source of their opinion is irrelevant.

So I would never point at someone and say, "Your views come from your religion and therefore you are unqualified to be in office." Instead, I would look at their platform and see whether or not it makes the country a better place.

A politician should not be against something because it's his personal opinion, whether he be religious or not. Instead, he should look at it from the perspective of "does it violate people's rights?" or "does it make the country worse?" or "are the people I represent against this?".

ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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... I'm still waiting to see "Holy Wars, The Game" in the depot. Far too much debate and much too little code!

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Quote:

Religious views should not affect policy.

That's an unfortunate expression. I'd say that church affairs and state affairs should be strictly separated. It has been acknowledged hundreds years before and there's no purpose for re-enacting it.

Edit:

Quote:

... I'm still waiting to see "Holy Wars, The Game" in the depot. Far too much debate and much too little code!

My CH07 entry has a background theme similar to holy wars. Unfortunately I don't think it's worth submitting into the depot.

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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All right, policies should not be implemented with no reason for them other than that some religion says so.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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@ OICW and everyone else...

A nice story... read it, you might learn something ;)

Quote:

PATHWAYS

Well, it had been yet another bad day in the office, and once again it was the fault of that new girl, MaryAnne. She is one of those Wiccans, a so-called witch. How can anyone in their right mind make this claim, knowing that it goes against God and all of the teachings of the bible?

She doesn't even have the common decency to keep her satanic symbol, her pentagram necklace hidden from the view of the decent, God fearing people in the office. She has some nerve.

I find that I cannot hate her for this though, for I know that she has been deceived. Satan works his evil in ways that she cannot see. I've seen that so called Wiccan Rede that she has tacked to the wall above her computer.

On the surface, it looks like a decent loving belief, but all one must do is look, look closely and see that by practicing this way, and not embracing Jesus Christ as savior she is on the pathway to hell. As I've said, it was a bad day in the office.

Three times in the past few weeks I have been called in to see my supervisor, and he has told me that I am not allowed to preach to MaryAnne the word of God, to show her the error of her ways. Today, my supervisor told me that if I continue to "harass" MaryAnne, he will be forced to terminate me. How can he say this? He himself is a God fearing man. And, how can he be so tolerant of the evil that he sees insinuating itself into our workplace?

As I laid myself down to sleep last night, I asked the Lord for guidance. "God, grant me a true vision of you, so that I may better lead the faithless onto the righteous path."

"Oh, a true vision of Me is it? Are you sure that you're ready, truly ready to see, my son?"

I sat bolt upright in bed, and there, at the foot of my bed, white of hair and beard, in a long, flowing white robe, stood the Lord my God. I made to leap from the bed and fall to my knees in front of Him, but he stopped me with a gesture. "Kneel not before me at this time my son. Instead, rise and walk with Me, so that you may get a glimpse of what I truly am, as you asked of me in your prayer."

He took my hand, and as I looked, my bedroom was no longer there, but a pathway thru the woods. We started to walk, and I was too awestruck for words. We took the path to the left, and we were then inside St. Catherine's Church, in the middle of a service. While still standing beside me, God seemed to expand and fill the whole of the church. I could see smiles of contentment forming on some of the parishioners faces. I felt blessed.

God smiled upon me."The Catholics hold such pretty masses, don't they? I like to stop here in this church, because not only do they speak the words, but they live the life, thru teaching, helping the sick and poor, not only with handouts, but helping them learn to help themselves. Now let us walk on," And we were back on the pathway.

We traveled a bit further along, and then were in the parlor of a funeral home. A young woman was kneeling before the casket, resting her head on it and crying. I could see by the similarity, that this dead man must be her father. God knelt beside her, and drew His arms about her. "Miss him, that is all right, but weep not for him, for now he is with Me". She wiped her eyes, and stood with a sad smile upon her face, and said "Good-bye Daddy. I'll miss you," and turned and left the room.

And we were back on the pathway. We walked a little ways, and we were in front of a large lodge of some kind. I could hear music and laughter spilling out of the windows. I turned to look at God, and was shocked to see, not the flowing white robe, but Him wearing leather and animal furs, his hair and beard now the color of wheat, and a sword strapped across His back.

He strode forth, and I saw him approach a figure I had not seen before. As I looked close, I was shocked to see that it was the same face that I had just seen dead, but looking young and strong, and dressed in ancient looking garb, an ax strapped to his waist. God strode up to him and grabbed him in a great bear hug. "Welcome my son. We've been waiting for you. Now, go inside and raise a cup or two, and meet with your brother." And, with a hearty slap on the back, he sent the man inside. And then we were back on the pathway.

We walked a bit further, and then we were in a mosque. At least I believed so, as I had never been in one before, but had seen pictures of them. The group of worshippers was not large, but I could see their rapt faces as they listened to the mullah speak. He was speaking to them of purity, both of the mind and the body, bringing them closer to Allah.

And as he spoke, God, dressed now in the robes of the desert, walked among them and briefly laid his hands upon each set of shoulders. >From their faces, I could see that these men knew that the words of the mullah were true, and that their spirits felt touched by God. And then we were back on the pathway.

After we had walked a bit, we found ourselves in an African village. People with skin as black as night, the women with their breasts shamefully bared, were dancing in a circle, to the rhythm of the drums being played by a group of men.

Somehow though, I was not offended by the bared breasts, and the music seemed to seep into my soul. God was then a mighty lion, and He let forth a mighty roar. The villagers did not seem to hear, but the drums increased their pounding, and the dancers danced with a frenzy. And then we were back on the pathway.

We walked a bit more, and were on the top of a cliff. There sat, painted and covered with feathers, an old Navajo man. As I watched, he seemed to change into the form of an eagle and take flight, and we were flying with him, soaring high into the air, seeing the vista spread out below us.

And God, in the form of an eagle Himself, seemed to guide this other eagle thru the air, over mountains and thru valleys, until he came upon a group of men. As I watched, the old Navajo man was no longer an eagle, but a young boy instead, and he sat at the feet of these men, to listen to the words of his elders. And then we were back on the pathway.

We traveled a bit, and then we were in a forest clearing. I knew this place. It was known as a place of devil worship and evil. In the center of the clearing roared a great bonfire, and kiwi torches outlined a circle of sorts. Inside this circle, in a circle themselves, stood 6 men and 7 women, dressed in robes of varying colors, their arms raised to the moon. Was that woman MaryAnne? I really couldn't be sure.

And God walked among them in the circle, touching each one. He seemed not to be an older man now, but as he made each of three turns around the circle, he was first a young girl, bouncing with energy, then a woman of middle years, with a tender smile for all Her children, and finally, an old woman, body bent, but holding Her head up with pride.

And a woman stepped forward, and yes, it was MaryAnne, and lifted her head to the sky. "Great Goddess, Mother of us all, thank you for joining us tonight. Stay if You will, go if You must. Know in our hearts You will always be welcome. Blessed be!!" And we were back on the pathway.

As we walked along, ahead in the distance I saw the most beautiful man. Yes, beautiful, though I would never normally think of a man this way. With blonde hair, and a golden robe, he seemed to radiate sunshine. God and this golden man nodded to each other as they passed, sharing a smile together.

"My Lord" I asked, "was that an angel?"

"Well, yes, he is known as that to some. He is also known to some as a god himself. That was Lucifer"

And His words caused me to stumble. I couldn't believe that we had just passed the ultimate evil. God looked at me, and He knew my mind. And he chuckled a bit. "Think about it logically My son. The Lucifer that you know is a fallen angel, cast out of heaven for challenging Me. If I am the all powerful being, above all others, how could he do this? How could I allow it?"

"But, in the Bible...." I stammered.

"The Bible is a wonderful book, as are the Koran and the Torah and many others, but they are just books, written by the hand of man, not written by Me. And, it's a bit confusing as well if the truth be known, but that's not up to Me to fix. These books are wonderful, but only as guidance, for each man and woman must think for themselves." And, I believed He was right in this.

"Now, come forth, we must journey a little more before you go back" and He took my hand once again.

As we followed the pathway, we soared thru the stars, listening to the music of the heavens, we became a little flower and a mighty oak, we became a babbling brook, and a mighty ocean. We flitted from flower to flower as a little honey bee, and ran across the plains as a mighty stallion.

And, all too soon the pathway returned us to my home. God held my hand a moment longer, and smiled into my face. "My son, you prayed tonight for a true vision of Me. For vision, you must only open your eyes and see what there is to see. Good night to you". And then He was gone, and I was back in my bed.

A dream I thought, only a dream, that couldn't have been real. At that time, a bolt of lightning lit up my room thru the window, and thunder crashed thru the sky, and I thought I heard, from seemingly far away, "Remember, the Lord works in mysterious ways My son".

This morning as I entered the office, I went to the machine for a cup of coffee, and standing there, I spied MaryAnne. As I approached her, I could see her barely cringe, and I could see in her face that she was expecting yet another onslaught from me and my book. She seemed to cast her eyes about for a way to escape, but there was none.

I walked up to her and smiled. "I think I owe you a bit of an apology" I said. "I've been a bit narrow minded of late, and I really had no right to subject you to what I did. It's not up to me to say how you find your path to your spirit, and I was wrong to think that was so," MaryAnne just stood there, not knowing what to say.

"So, I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry, and I hope you will forgive my trespass.

May those with whom we share ourselves be open and understanding, that they may be shown what spirituality is to them...and how it may not be as different as they think...

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Isn't there shorter version. I bet that I'm not the only one who won't read it. (for the time being I should do something else).

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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No, besides it would eleminate the whole point..

But it's worth reading it.. print it out and read it in bed ;)

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Too long.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

[Readers Digest]
Man is a narrow minded Christian. His work mate is a Wicca woman, which pisses him. Then he meets God and finds out that God is good and loves all Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus (were there them too?) etc. He says to our man that the Bible is a good book, as well as the Tora, the Koran etc, but only written by man trying to understand God. Then our man goes to the Wicca woman and apologizes for being an arse.
[/Readers Digest]

I honestly liked the story. I believe there lies a truth in it. Unfortunately it doesn't very well cover the atheistic point of view, but how could it? It's kind of a pantheistic message to any narrow minded monotheist.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Having read the whole thing, I quite enjoyed it. That is sort of my idea of god, not some being that favors one sect, but what might be described as the universal conscience.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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I skimmed the beginning and the ending. Looked kinda like your typical flowery/religiony "OMG now go hug somebody" story. I debated reading it for hope it might be a hilarious parody of those types of stories but decided it was too long and the odds were too low.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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that's got to be some sort of record. before this one (obviously) no one had commented on this thread for about 27 hours.

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
avatar

What do you want? This thread is 13 pages long and practically all of what could be said has been said. This flamewar argument ended like so many others before - nobody won. And it will happen again, sooner or later.

Edited.

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Worst part is, everything will be repeated, including the stuff people were corrected on. KRISHANS DO GUD TINGZ CUZ DEY APHRAID UV HELL AMIRITE!?!?!

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.



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