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| Gater!!! |
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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote: While it is not a good idea to globally accuse scientists of "cooking the books", it certainly can be done. A case in point is the "scientific proofs" of racial superiority.
I'm not accusing globally. I'm simply pointing out an explicit example in the article you posted. That's, like, one. -- |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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All right, perhaps the distinction I'm trying to make is that if a person is using science to support/attack moral stances, it requires an extra look, and is often suspect. -- |
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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote: All right, perhaps the distinction I'm trying to make is that if a person is using science to support/attack moral stances, it requires an extra look, and is often suspect. Replace "science" with "anything" and we're on the same page. -- |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Say "anything except morality". -- |
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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Because we have not answered a question does not mean there is some god hidden behind ;-) "Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours" |
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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But when you think about it. I can almost understand why people believe in a god. Think about it. We all die. Our relatives die. Everyone we love dies. And to think that they ( and you ) all end up in a void... In nothing. Depressing actually. Believing in an afterlife makes you believe that you will see your relatives and friends and continue living. But I just understand why others believe in this. I still cant though. In capitalist America bank robs you. |
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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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A belief in an afterlife doesn't necessitate a belief in (a) god. -- |
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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Ok KC, I didn't mean to be ignorant. Sorry! In capitalist America bank robs you. |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Quote: The scientific method is useless as fsck on anything that can't be reproduced and repeated in a testable environment. That's a helluva lot more than "religion". You would have to be one narrow-minded individual if all you could believe in is what you could experiment on. Occam's razor has a lot to do with my disbelief as well. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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From what I can tell, A) Occam's razor applies in general to scientific theories; and B) it is meant to be applied when all other things are equal. In the field of scientific theories, the admittedly simplest theory applicable to any problem, "God did it,", is not in any wise equal in merit to scientific theories. -- |
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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001
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Dustin Dettmer said: But it is written in the Bible. The Bible is the truth because it helps people, even alcoholics. I used to be an unbeliever like you until I accepted Jesus, you should try it. Its a great high. And if you get started I can be your religious dealer. :-) In my country, we are 98% Orthodox, and we declare ourselves as religious. The Church comes very high in polls asking "what social institution do we trust". But my country is also the first in corruption, in the European Union. It's not really religion that helps alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. It's other people, like priests, social workers, etc. People that want to do good. amber said: It actually doesn't prove anything, because the existence of a lot of conflicting beliefs (none of which may be right) doesn't do anything towards proving the belief that they're all wrong. It's actually exactly as you said before: there is no way to prove it, because no experiment can be done. Atheists have their own brand of "faith", too: that all theistic systems that ever have been and ever will be devised are wrong. It can't (yet? ever? I don't know) be proven. Think about it like this: if there was a supernatural entity that made the universe, would it be selective as to which people would it reveal its presence? To put it in other words: if the muslim God was true, wouldn't he reveal himself to ALL the people, instead of SOME of the people? unless this God was a biased one, considering some of his creations more worthy to some other creations. 23yrold3yrold said: We know this. The scientific method is useless as fsck on anything that can't be reproduced and repeated in a testable environment. That's a helluva lot more than "religion". You would have to be one narrow-minded individual if all you could believe in is what you could experiment on. Would you discount the historical evidence for the Bible's credibility alone, merely because you can't experiment on it? I wasn't talking about you, specifically. Anyway, the historical evidence of any ancient book depends on the historical monuments we find today. Since some of what the Bible claims have been found, some of it is true. It's not all of it true, unless proven otherwise. This is valid for any text. For example, just because the mountain of Olympus exists in Greece, it does not mean that the 12 Gods of ancient Greece existed. 23yrold3yrold said:
While true .... they generally aren't. This only proves that the Christian Mission on Princess St has some good people in it. On the other hand, the Orthodox Church of Greece has a vast fortune (largely made out of donations of people that did not want their land/goods to fall to Turkish hands) of several hundred billion euros worth, but the homeless in Athens have been increased at the last few years...not to mention the shameless lobbying of the head of church, mr Christodoulos, who wants the state to 'donate' public land to the Church so he can make hotels and other businesses. 23yrold3yrold said: BTW, you're still coming at it wrong. They tend to be more moral because they've been born again with Jesus' spirit. So, George Bush, who is a declared Born Again Christian, lives in the spirit of Jesus? Jesus said 'turn the other chick', not 'make war', last time I checked. And let's not go into the Catholic Church and all the crimes it has done in the past centuries... |
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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I think 23 meant it like this. 1000 People are religious, 900 of these people follow the 'Jesus' path if you want to call it like that. 100 People will do shit to make the world worse. But those are exceptions. 90% are good. But thinking that religion has ANYTHING to do with morality in a human is plain wrong. Humans develop the sense of whats wrong/right when they are little children. They learn from their parents. So even without religion there would be morality and ethics and the world world wouldn't go down burning... In capitalist America bank robs you. |
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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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Quote: It's not really religion that helps alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. It's other people, like priests, social workers, etc.
While the hurricane Katrina was turning the city of New Orleans into Atlantis, an old man sat on his roof praying to God. A boat came along the street and some people on board shouted to the man to climb down and follow them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
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Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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Johan, what were you doing in heaven to hear God's reply? God never talks to me. In fact, I reckon, if anything, he has rigged the evidence around me to make it seem like he doesn't exist. With his all-mighty powers and knowledge he has set up the world so that I personally cannot believe in him. Everything I know and trust; everything I have seen and understood; everything points against his existence. I can only conclude that either he doesn't exist, or that part of his great plan is that I don't believe in him. Either way, my path is pretty clear. ----------- |
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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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You fool ! God just do not want to be bored by geeks like you Karadoc ;-) "Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours" |
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Quote: the admittedly simplest theory applicable to any problem, "God did it," That's not a theory so much as it's giving up on understanding. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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amber
Member #6,783
January 2006
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Quote: Think about it like this: if there was a supernatural entity that made the universe, would it be selective as to which people would it reveal its presence? Maybe it would reveal itself to everyone if we just knew where to look. Maybe, as you stated, some creations are more worthy than others. Maybe it's a reclusive being that doesn't reveal itself to anyone, but is still out there somewhere. And, of course, maybe it doesn't even exist at all-- either because it never did, or because it once did but then it died. We have no proof one way or the other, so we don't know. You can make assumptions about its behavior (it must want to reveal itself) and then based on those assumptions argue that your assertion is true, but there is no proof that those assumptions need to hold. They are as much "faith" as the belief (or lack thereof) in the entity in the first place. If you're arguing against a religion whose dogma includes the assertion that the God/supernatural being/whatever wants to reveal itself to everyone, then you've definitely made a successful argument against that religion specifically-- but not theism in general. Other cases are possible, like I said just above. |
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Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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@ Amber What if people don't want to accept a deity, because IF they do accept that deity they will also have to give other beings their place in the world instead of (mis) using them. What if people are more attracted to religions that are about good and bad, rich and poor, the haves and the have nots.. just because they can justify their own behaviour. A religion that tells you not to harm no matter what the rules, could be hard to accept for some Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard) |
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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001
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amber said: Maybe it would reveal itself to everyone if we just knew where to look. If that was the case, knowing how to find God would be common knowledge by now. But wait a minute. Which God? amber said: Maybe, as you stated, some creations are more worthy than others. God can't be unfair or biased, otherwise he is no God. amber said: Maybe it's a reclusive being that doesn't reveal itself to anyone, but is still out there somewhere. Then it wouldn't make a difference: it would be exactly if God did not exist. amber said: You can make assumptions about its behavior (it must want to reveal itself) and then based on those assumptions argue that your assertion is true, but there is no proof that those assumptions need to hold. They are as much "faith" as the belief (or lack thereof) in the entity in the first place. If you're arguing against a religion whose dogma includes the assertion that the God/supernatural being/whatever wants to reveal itself to everyone, then you've definitely made a successful argument against that religion specifically-- but not theism in general. Other cases are possible, like I said just above. Actually, your argument reinforces my position. It is not me that says that God reveals himself to some people, it's religious people that claim it. I am simply asking the obvious: if God reveals himself to some people, then why does he reveal himself as A in one case and as B in another case? Ariesnl said: What if people don't want to accept a deity, because IF they do accept that deity they will also have to give other beings their place in the world instead of (mis) using them. Another logical fallacy. The majority of the world accepts a deity, but the world is full of problems. Therefore, you must either admit that (a) all bad things come from atheists or (b) the world is not full of problems or (c) your proposition is wrong. |
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Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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@axilmar: you're thinking in absolute good and evil again ... Problems are not necessarily bad, without problems there won't be any point to learning. The world would become dull. People would have no "spirit" in achieving things. Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard) |
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Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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blah blah blah... Life is not a fairytale... blah. There are no happy endings... Blah... I think this thread should have died a long time ago... ---- |
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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Chris actually left on the 4th page. In capitalist America bank robs you. |
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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Actually he left on the 5th page. |
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Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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No I am sure it was the fifth. thread/ID/ = 1st page So yeah, 5th page. In capitalist America bank robs you. |
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Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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Talking about something else than programming or computers is good for your inner ballance Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard) |
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