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Web Development Job
Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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Oh, and i almost forgot; there is no "back" function in flash (i use the side-button on my mouse for that normally), i can't use mouse gestures... and the list goes on.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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I'm tempted to use that block user script on bamccaig... >:(

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Ceagon Xylas
Member #5,495
February 2005
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Quote:

I've watched the area around me grow into more of a city and many more non-denominational churches popping up.

They're totally unconcerned with denominations. Non-denominational is a denomination IMO :P All they care about is if you're saved or not. [/religion]

Quote:

Oh, and btw, congrats on the job! Are you getting a flat fee for it, or are you paid by the hour?

Thanks! Looks like flat fee, because I'll be working at home. There'll really be no way for him to judge how many hours I've worked.

Quote:

I think the need for tabbed browsing is a flaw in Web design

Sss... Yeah, gotta jump on the popular view train here, and go with, "you're wrong."

Quote:

Oh, and i almost forgot; there is no "back" function in flash

Oh I know! Most annoying thing about it is when I forget flash doesn't have that, then have to let the page reload and find where I was last ::)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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BAF said:

That's why you use relative sizing and positioning, not absolute.

IIRC, I did use relative sizing and positioning. It scrolls properly in IE6 regardless of the Text-Size. I'll confirm that tomorrow.

MiquelFire said:

I'm tempted to use that block user script on bamccaig... >:(

It doesn't matter how many of you are anti-Flash. Not everybody is. If you don't want to hear opposing arguments then what's the point of using a Web forum? Fitting in?

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Opposing arguments are fine, but relentless arguing on every conceivable topic is pure trolling.

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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Very few of us are anti-flash. I'm not anti-flash, and yet I say flash is horrible for this job. It is not the proper tool.

You can't use a screwdriver with a nail very well. Same kind of idea.

Ceagon Xylas
Member #5,495
February 2005
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Kill someone else's topic plz, kthnx.

I notice style.display="none"; and style.display="block"; don't work correctly in IE. Anyone got a work around? Trying to create a collapseable content menu for the media player, so I'm not even sure if this is the appropriate method.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Thomas Fjellstrom said:

Opposing arguments are fine, but relentless arguing on every conceivable topic is pure trolling.

I don't argue on every conceivable topic. I give my opinion when I have one and always appreciate at least some of the feedback I get for it. If that's trolling then so be it, but I was under the impression that trolling has negative intentions.

BAF said:

I'm not anti-flash, and yet I say flash is horrible for this job. It is not the proper tool.

How much do you even know about "this job" because as far as I know the only thing we've been told is that he's developing and/or maintaining the Web site for Elevation Church... :-/ Flash is a great tool for the job. I'm not sure what Elevation Church is, but apparently the site Ceagon linked to isn't the only "Elevation Church" Web site developed in Flash which might suggest that whoever they are they like Flash. :D

Ceagon Xylas said:

Kill someone else's topic plz, kthnx.

You asked for people to "drop any hints" (which might not be the best choice of words now that I think of it) and mine (::)) is to not dismiss Flash.

Ceagon Xylas said:

I notice style.display="none"; and style.display="block"; don't work correctly in IE. Anyone got a work around? Trying to create a collapseable content menu for the media player, so I'm not even sure if this is the appropriate method.

I've never had a problem with it not working... :-/ What do you mean by not working correctly? ???

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Quote:

Flash is a great tool for the job.

No matter what your opinion is, Flash is not a great tool for the job. That's web design fact 101.

Does Flash look pretty? Yes, it can be very nice. But web sites are not programs. Web sites are pages with content that can be indexed, bookmarked, and browsed. Flash should be considered on the same grounds as an embedded image or movie. It's multimedia. Okay? Get that through your head.

Creating an entire website in Flash is like creating an entire website with images. It's just insane. The only time it's acceptable is if your website is nothing but a commercial. But then you don't really have a website. You just have a commercial on the internet.

Ceagon Xylas
Member #5,495
February 2005
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Quote:

I've never had a problem with it not working... :-/ What do you mean by not working correctly? ???

Well, I guess it could be alot of things now that I think of it. getElementsByName or things like that. I'll look into it.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Matthew Leverton said:

But web sites are not programs. Web sites are pages with content that can be indexed, bookmarked, and browsed.

That's debatable. The very term "Web application" suggests that the Web is moving from once static documents into dynamic content and ever closer to applications/programs.

I admit that there are disadvantages to Flash (and advantages as well). There are also disadvantages to today's Web languages and browsers. Hopefully Adobe figures out an efficient and effective way to index the 'movies'. Personally I find it frustrating to get warnings that a certain page has expired or whatever and you need to resend POST data, for example. I'm not really a fan of forward/back browsing. I usually open pages in tabs and close them when I'm done, returning to the parent tab to continue browsing. Either that or I'll use the Web site's navigation to get around.

Matthew Leverton said:

Okay? Get that through your head.

There's no reason to get upset. :-/

ixilom
Member #7,167
April 2006
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bamccaig said:

I think the need for tabbed browsing is a flaw in Web design

bamccaig said:

I usually open pages in tabs and close them when I'm done, returning to the parent tab

::)

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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ixilom said:

[quote bamccaig]I think the need for tabbed browsing is a flaw in Web design

bamccaig said:

I usually open pages in tabs and close them when I'm done, returning to the parent tab

::)
</quote>
Being the best available design doesn't make it the best design.

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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I apologize, Ceagon, I have nothing on topic to contribute.

Bamccaig, there is no point arguing against you with reasonable points or even following any guidelines of sensible argument in general; you, plain and simple, are far too dense for any of that sensible nonsense to get through.

I thought I'd try calling you an idiot, the odds were as good as anything else in curbing your inane viewpoint.

I had typed extensively here, but I think this little bit of text sums it up quite well: In a battle of you against the world, the odds are that you are wrong, not the world. Stop trolling your inane opinions; they are wrong, you are wrong, you may claim whatever you like, but you will still be wrong. If someone starts a thread about FinalFantasy, feel free to contribute--no such thread would be complete without a fanboy's input--but otherwise, do a little research before you post and try thinking outside the realms of your own likes and dislikes.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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You're arguing that Flash does not belong on a Web site for anything more than multimedia, when in reality there are a ton of successful, professionally built Flash Web sites. You're arguing in favor of your likes and dislikes. I understand that some people don't like Flash Web sites, but I also acknowledge that some people do like Flash Web sites. Even Microsoft has developed full Web sites in Flash (and possible other similar technologies).

Recently I've seen a couple of major Microsoft campaigns where the Web site was a Flash application. Whether or not you like Microsoft you can't deny that they know a thing or two about user-friendliness and marketing.

I often see major automotive companies (American, European, and Asian) using Flash to provide rich environments to explore their product line. The kinds of things companies do with Flash to both grab your attention and present information would be very difficult without Flash.

You're arguing that Flash shouldn't be used to develop an entire Web site or system, rather should be used as a multimedia projector for smaller roles. I'm arguing that Flash can be used to develop a rich Web site that's user-friendly and effective at getting the information across, often even more attention grabbing than a non-Flash site. Why don't you do some research? ::)

Here's an interesting site: Best Flash Sites Vote - Best Flash Animation Site.com V2.2

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

I'm arguing that Flash can be used to develop a rich Web site that's user-friendly and effective at getting the information across, often even more attention grabbing than a non-Flash site.

No Flash-only site is user-frriendly to modem users. There should always be a non-flash option.

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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As a disclaimer, let it be known that I would not be attempting to force this dead horse to drink if not for the need to take my mind off the heat of this room.

bamccaig said:

You're arguing that Flash does not belong on a Web site for anything more than multimedia, when in reality there are a ton of successful, professionally built Flash Web sites.

Because it is common sense that if you see everyone else jumping off a bridge, there must be a treasure chest at the bottom of the lake. You seem to be basing much of your argument off the fact that a few large corporations use flash websites now and again. I fail to see how these can be deemed by you successful. Of course people go to them, they don't know of any other option.

bamccaig said:

You're arguing in favor of your likes and dislikes.

Of course I am, but look at the rest of the thread and the writings of accomplished web designers in it. I am arguing in favor of what the majority wants. You are arguing in favor of what you, and apparently you alone (and a few other idiots here and there) think is better.

bamccaig said:

I understand that some people don't like Flash Web sites, but I also acknowledge that some people do like Flash Web sites.

You have stated this numerous times, no one cares, you are still a troll. We are all well aware that a few people with graphics fetishes like you exist, but they are an extreme minority who can be satiated without killing the majority via flash, so why bother screwing them for your sake?

bamccaig said:

Even Microsoft has developed full Web sites in Flash (and possible other similar technologies).

To the best of my recollection, every site that Microsoft has developed fully in Flash have been nothing short of commercials, which, as has already been stated, Flash is well suited towards. There is no real content to any of these sites and, if there is, it could be replaced by something with one fifth the loading time. Flash can, and frequently does, look better, but that does not mean it is better. Yes, I know that you have been brought up your whole life to believe that the price tag is a direct measure of quality, but it isn't, plain and simple.

bamccaig said:

Recently I've seen a couple of major Microsoft campaigns where the Web site was a Flash application.

See above.

bamccaig said:

Whether or not you like Microsoft you can't deny that they know a thing or two about user-friendliness and marketing.

This seems to remind me of something... oh yes, see above.

bamccaig said:

I often see major automotive companies (American, European, and Asian) using Flash to provide rich environments to explore their product line.

Give me a few links, I would be glad to tell you why these "rich environments" are crap wrapped in tin foil. Flash cannot provide a better environment than HTML or some variant. It can provide a better looking environment, but appearances are worthless when seeking content.

bamccaig said:

The kinds of things companies do with Flash to both grab your attention and present information would be very difficult without Flash.

Grabbing attention seems like something suited to a commercial. Using Flash is basically making a website that makes some loud noise when you open it--it grabs your attention, but then fails to do anything useful with it. I am going to assume that you aren't trying to argue that Flash is better at presenting meaningful content than HTML, density of that level would truly frighten me.

bamccaig said:

You're arguing that Flash shouldn't be used to develop an entire Web site or system, rather should be used as a multimedia projector for smaller roles.

Good job, aren't you observant.

bamccaig said:

I'm arguing that Flash can be used to develop a rich Web site that's user-friendly and effective at getting the information across, often even more attention grabbing than a non-Flash site.

The problems with fully Flash websites have already been stated, I see no need to reiterate them. Alright, I am lying. I know you have eyes that are quite picky about what you read. I am too lazy to reiterate how Flash can never be as, and especially not more, user friendly than DHTML. You are wrong, it is just that simple.

bamccaig said:

Why don't you do some research?

My very existence outside of the Internet has frequently been brought into question--I can cite examples of this if you like--I think I know what I am talking about.

bamccaig said:

Here's an interesting site: Best Flash Sites Vote - Best Flash Animation Site.com V2.2

A site holding votes for the best web sites written in Flash. Pray tell, how exactly is that supposed to be any argument that Flash is better than HTML?

I'm done now, but it is still too hot in this room.

[edit]Wrote more.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

I can't view Flash at work. The firewall prevents them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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I love it. "Best Flash Sites Vote - Best Flash Animation Site.com V2.2" all look like this:

crappy flash site that sucks cause it's flash said:

loading

here's an example.

with that much data anybody could make a good looking website.

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

here's an example.

It was still loading after 45s, so I closed it. And that's NOT on dial-up, and nor am I currently throttled.

That's usally why I don't see many flash sites. Waiting 45s for a page to load is pretty extreme for me. I usually close pages that haven't loaded in 15-20s.

Ceagon Xylas
Member #5,495
February 2005
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Mark Oates said:

here's an example

That site looks pretty good, and is bound to keep ADD american's attention.

Quote:

with that much data anybody could make a good looking website.

But you're absolutely right about that.

Simon Parzer
Member #3,330
March 2003
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Responding to the OP:

Quote:

I just received a job as a web developer for Elevation Church [elevationchurch.org]. My only goal is, I have to make their site look good. I'm excited, seeing as I'm 18 and have no degree at all. I feel it's a very open-ended opprotunity.
Any web developers here wanna drop in any hints for the job or the website design are welcome to throw them out here.

Don't use Flash, do what ML, relpateht and everyone else except bamccaig said.

You are designing a website for a church. That means, your users will be modem users, visually impaired, retirees, idiots, ...
You need to make sure even the most stupid, nearly-blind type of user can actually read what's on your website. That also includes Internet Explorer users. You don't need fluid animations and flashy stuff. Chances are that at least a part of your users doesn't even have the Flash plugin installed.
Use big fonts, CSS and a really simple layout.
This, for example is not properly readable:
http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592328

And among all other things, make sure you get paid for the job. Today's world is full of fucking idiots who want a website they don't need, and they think they don't need to pay for it (based on my experiences). Keep track of your working hours and charge for them.

Three Harris
Member #6,226
September 2005

Some consider me an idiot. I have DSL and it is slow as dirt. By the way, did I say my eyesight is failing.

Ceagon Xylas
Member #5,495
February 2005
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Quote:

Some consider me an idiot. I have DSL and it is slow as dirt. By the way, did I say my eyesight is failing.

Can you understand logic? That's all it takes for me to like you. ;)

Quote:

And among all other things, make sure you get paid for the job.

Apparently I'm getting $2,500 for 8 weeks worth of work... $312 a week. And seeing as I don't go to school or work two jobs and that I live with my parents, that should be about 3 weeks. ;D Plus, my boss took me out to eat today and he paid. Nicest guy.

Not the best, but I can't complain. I have no degree, (18 years of age,) and this is my first real job.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Simon Parzer said:

This, for example is not properly readable...

I agree that parts of that Web site are poorly designed, however, Flash is capable of being completely readable and clear. And getting the Flash plug-in is simple and relatively fast even on dial-up. If you use Internet Explorer or Firefox then you shouldn't have any trouble (which IIRC are the two most popular browsers by a long shot; especially for those computer illiterate).

Simon Parzer said:

You are designing a website for a church.

There are some churches that target youths using modern gimmicks to capture their attention. My impression of Elevation Church is that it fits the profile. Those that are computer illiterate are less likely to use the Web site regardless of how simple you make it. You might as well make it Flashy.

IMO, that Elevation Church Web site is more or less an advertisement. In any case, I'd love to see it when the OP is done with it.

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