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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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-- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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I also clarified the longer post a bit, there might have been some misunderstanding there. There have been rumours that some Estonian teenagers want to gather into groups and do some kind of punishment operation or something. I hope nothing like that happens or it would be really simple to show us in bad light. All it takes is one fight between large group of Estonians and a few Russians to "prove" how Russian minorities are being "discriminated" in our country. I've seen one video from some Russian news reporters* and all they showed there were lots of poliecemen and some rioters being dragged away, nothing about looting *) http://video.rfn.ru/vesti_24 So far I know that three Estonians have been arrested while they were walking around with our national flag. They weren't doing anything bad but I think it was the correct decision, they would have been an excellent target for the rioters. [edit] Got to love 21'st century __________ |
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Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003
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Quote: You raid wool shop, of cource In Soviet Russia, wool shop raid you!
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HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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More videos, I haven't looked them myself yet: [edit] With every bit of news I get I see that removing the statue is the only right thing to do. This is only an excuse to do all sorts of bad things. Too bad it wasn't done sooner, though. Right time would have been together with all those other USSR statues that were removed when we got our freedom back in 1991. [edit2] [edit3] [edit4] [edit5] [edit6] Here is a photograph of some of the people involved: *) remember to whom that statue was dedicated. Here are a bunch of more photos of the chaos: [edit7] __________ |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Can't we all just get along? -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Some early statistics:
</li> I'm off to work now probably have a bit better information in a few hours. [edit2] Quote: Russia should "carry out a special-forces operation to bring the remains of our soldiers back. That would be a beautiful answer to the Estonian fascists' provocations," the nationalist Motherland party's former leader, Dmitri Rogozin, told the Rosbalt news agency. "Estonia's energy security depends entirely on Russia: we just have to flip the switch and it would all go dark there, everything would stop - hospitals, factories, transport," a vice-chairman of the Russian parliament, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, told the agency. We all know that Russia has already used its energy to blackmail and threaten other countries. Just try to remember what happened Ukraine some time ago. That Dmitri Rogozin guy has also said that what happened here last ningt should be good enough of a reason for starting a war. His words were something like "first economical sanctions then ending all diplomatic relations and finally war". Of cource he is not the one who makes such decisions, most likely he just sais that to gather votes. Also I doubt (hope) Russia won't do anything that bad. After all, Estonia is a member of NATO. [edit2] [edit3] [edit4] __________ |
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Ron Ofir
Member #2,357
May 2002
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This is just stupid... I really hope those teenagers will get some time to think about it in jail. I find it weird that only 1 person has died, though. |
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HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Some preliminary information about the killing said that the man was killed by one of the Russian shop owners who was trying to defend its property. I'm not 100% sure, though as no official information is currently known about that. Quote: I find it weird that only 1 person has died, though Why is that weird? Our police forces did not attack those people, they just tried to scare them away, unlike what OMON does in Russia. Though that is probably also the reason why so many shops were raided. Most Estonians did not go there because there is a really good chance to get your ass kicked by the angry mobsters. There have been some reports of arrested Estonians, though. I'm not sure if they just got in the way of police or did they participate in the looting as well. __________ |
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Ron Ofir
Member #2,357
May 2002
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Quote: Why is that weird? Our police forces did not attack those people, they just tried to scare them away, unlike what OMON does in Russia. I didn't think about the police, I thought about 1000 angry russian mobsters in an Estonian city. |
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HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote: I didn't think about the police, I thought about 1000 angry russian mobsters in an Estonian city. In that respect you are right, there were quite few casualties. I think the situation is somewhat similar to Paris in 2005, though there it took almost nation wide scale and a lot more people were involved. Luckily only one human got killed. Then again this was only the first night and nobody knows what can happen during the coming few weeks. Things are relatively quiet right now. There have been a couple of small incidents with few people involved but nothing too serious. There seems to be a massive FUD coming from Russia, though. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/04/27/011.html Quote: Police fired tear gas at the protesters and moved in a vehicle with a water cannon. So far I haven't heard any teargas was reported. Some rumours about it were on the move last night since a some smoke was seen but in fact that smoke was caused by a powder extinguisher that was used by police to hold back around 30 people who were trying to break through their lines. Yes, they moved around with a water cannon car but it was never used. There are some coverage of the situation by itar TASS: http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?GroupID=149 Special edition of a local newspaper with lots of pictures (PDF). Sorry, the text is in Estonian: http://www.speedyshare.com/731699529.html Also two NATO fighters were doing their regular patrol over Estonia and seemed to stay here for a little bit longer. Perhaps that might cool some people down and remember them we are part of NATO and fighting us would mean fighting with almost the whole world. Currently there are many rumours floating around. Some say that SMS'es were sent among the rioters and they were promised $8 per hour for causing all kinds of havoc. Some say that it was all organized by Russia, some say it was our own central party that lost on the last elections. It even sounds logical, they were objecting the relocation of the statue and now their leader is apologizing in front of Russian news reporters and is talking how this will likely cause the current government to fall apart. Just another vote gathering rally, it seems. I've also heard there really were some Estonians who gathered together. Though there were only around hundred of them and they were just sitting and talking peacefully. I hope it won't get nasty. Please note that I don't have nothing against Russians in general. I work with them and they are one of the best programmers I know. I also live in an area with above-average Russian density and it is considered one of the quietest parts of Tallinn. I bet if there would be a good enough reason for 1000 Estonians to gather and if you could find 10-20 good agitators they can also start similar riots, I think there is little difference between different nationalities. What I do not like is how Russian government handels the whole situation. To me it seems as this country is falling back to what USSR used to be: a police state governed by single party where everyone who were thinking different got punished. I wish luck to all the Russians who oppose Putins regime. I know what you feel, we had very similar situation here in Estonia lasting for half a century. [edit] [edit2] There are some new groups gathering on the streets, unfortunately now there are some Estonians too. So far I've heard that one bus station was vandalized but nothing too big, at least when comparing to what was going on last night. [edit3] Quote:
There were NO BATTLES in Tallinn since last Germans left the city on the afternoon of 21st September 1944 and the first Soviet forces arrived to Tallinn on the morning of 22nd September. There was even independent pre-war goverment restored just before Soviets arrived and Estonian flag was waving on the Tall Hermann tower (one of the symbols of Tallinn and Estonia, has the same meaning for Estonians as The Tower Of London has for Britons). The flag was later that day shot down with machine gun by Soviets and replaced with the red flag. This symbolizes start of the Soviet occupation, which lasted until 1990s. From what I remember from history lessons, this is true. I just remembered why exactly all this fuss about the statue began almost a year ago. Last year in 9'th May those people were there again drinking vodka. As it was disallowed some of the people got fined. That was seen as fascist action against Russian people and the conflict around the statue has grown ever since. For some history lesson you can read this. __________ |
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Samuel Henderson
Member #3,757
August 2003
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So thats whats going on over there. I've been listening to the news all day at work. They mentioned rioting and looting because of a statue in Estonia. When I heard Estonia my interest became piqued. I thought to myself, at least one person from a.cc is from there. Note: ================================================= |
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Samuel Henderson said:
I am listening to the news because some random computer in this lab @ work is playing it and I can't figure out which it is. Since I can't just turn them all off (it's actually very distracting) and going through all kvm's (theres about 30-40 machines running in here). I only mention this fact because I don't want people to assume I am a slacker.
My entire office is listening to their own radio or MP3 player. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
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HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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I've been offline for almost three hours and during that time it seems as things have got considerably worse.
There are some good news also.
Police has also got its watercannon working and is using it when needed. When lots of European countries have shown their support to our government German ex-chancellor condemns Estonia war memorial removal*. I wonder if it has anything to do with the gas/oil pipe they are building together with Russia ... *) It is not removed, it is moved to another place somewhere away from central city. I've never seen a guy so happy while getting hygienic bandages [edit] A rough translation of a news report: Quote: At midnight things got tight at Appollo bookstore where police arrested five rioters and handcuffed them. Soon after poliecemen where surrounded by rioters and there was some fighting until some backup poliecemen arrived to help from nearby street corner. Great agressiveness was demonstrated by young women As our president said, this has nothing to do with the statue. It is only about rioting, vandalism and looting now. It is really hard to watch all this happening. I feel a great urge to go help the policemen but I know I'd probably only make thigns worse by being an additional target. I'm quite sure that there are many others like me, I only hope they can resist that urge and will not go to the city tonight. It would make things only worse. This is an extremely delicate matter and if anything goes severely wrong very bad things can happen. [edit2] Seems as the head of the Central Pary* is verbally attacking the government for moving the statue. That same head of the party, Edgar Savisaar, is also the major of Tallinn and so far he has done absolutely nothing during the last two days but accusing the government of causing the riots that so far have caused an estimated damage of around €4-5 million. Just remember what Bloomberd did in NY at 9/11. Edgar is pathetic compared to him. *) By its views it is much closed to (extreme) left than centrality. [edit3] Central city is almost cleared of people, some rioters have been driven to outskirts of the city and there shouldn't be any big gangs hanging around any more. Maybe 5-20 people at most. There have been rumours that as police has no place to put the arrested people they are being transported to harbour passenger terminal. It also seems as things cooled down in the other town, Jõhvi, quite fast. There were some vandalism but not too big. Some windows were broken and streetsigns torn out but that seems to be all. Though there were rumours that vandals have moved to another town, Kohtla-Järve. Interesting thing is that this city has a lot more Russians than either Tallin and Jõhvi so if they vandalize something it is likely that they are doing ot to other Russians. [edit4] __________ |
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Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
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HoHo: the behavior of that people reminds me of some recent internal struggles in my country, but it's worse in Estonia, because of the international problems. -R |
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HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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That Savisaar guy, major of Tallinn and head of the central party is just pissing me off. Guess what he is doing while his party main supporters* are rioting on the streets? He blogs from safe distance and does nothing to ensure peace in the city he is supposed to control! *) I can dig up statistics from last parlament elections from a couple of months ago if needed. One thing he said was especially "interesting" (rough translation): Quote: Yes, we [Estonians] are the rulers of our country. We fought for it but a lot of Russians helped us also. Perhaps some remember 900,000 Russians protesting at Moscow and St. Peterbur in defence of the Baltic States. Back then those Russians let themselves to be beaten for supporting Baltic States. For what are they beaten today in the streets of Tallinn? From the city council window I've seen images that I wouldn't want to talk about. For what? I tell you for what. Looting, robbing, vandalizing and not following orders given by police. There is no other way to deal with such criminals. There is a whole world of differences between what happened in Russia at the fall of USSR and what is going on today in Tallinn. Sad thing is that Savisaar has been in high government places since before the fall of USSR. He was our prime minister during our liberation in 1991 and couple of times after that. He is probably the most proficient Estonian politician in the sense that he can manipulate people with ease. During the last elections he narrowly lost to the ones who ordered to move the statue. Too bad he fights for the minorities, not for what most people wants. Unfortunately this is how democracy seems to work __________ |
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There's nothing wrong with that.
