You are funny! Can you twist your face and do somersaults, too?

Top Gear seems to dislike Peugeot's. Could you explain that? Except for the whole "Brits hate France" thing.

edit:

See http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/590571/658707#target

Reckless endangerment. Thats another one.

"Reckless driving is a mental state in which the driver of an automobile behaves recklessly; the driver often misjudges common driving procedures, intentionally causing accidents and other damages." - Source

A drifter's mental state isn't reckless. Drifters neither intentionally wreck or cause damage. In fact, if they do it's probably unintentional and an embarassment. Enthusiasts often spend 10s of thousands of American dollars on their cars, and most aren't millionaires, so many baby their cars.

"A person commits the crime of reckless endangerment if the person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person." - Source

As I said, most street drifting is done on empty or low traffic roads, often at very late hours when the majority of people are at home asleep. Therefore, there is no substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person.

I'd need to discuss it with a lawyer before I was convinced of your argument. I don't really doubt that drifting is, or at least can be, illegal. However, I also believe it can be done responsibly and safely, both on road and race track. It might even be legal when done in a reserved, safe manner...

Keep in mind that rally racers drift as well. In fact, they drift on thin roads at excessive speeds with spectators standing on the sides of the roads, usually unprotected. This is common all over the world, including Europe and Asia. Accidents happen, but the 'roads' that rallying is done on are a lot thinner, less predictable, and the intent is to go as fast as possible on unfamiliar courses. The spectators don't seem worried because they're always there in vast numbers.

Drifting on the street is more of a control and style thing and often is done on very large paved roads at late hours where the roads are otherwise empty. And again, some use spotters and communication devices to warn of other vehicles and pedestrians (and cops ).

Before you disrespect or discredit drifting you should read about it first. It can be done responsibly and isn't inherently reckless. A very important factor in drifing is control. If the driver isn't in control he's not drifting: he's skidding out of control.

I like you bamccaig.

In any case, how do you all like participating in the Special Olympics?

Maybe Exhibition of speed or Reckless driving?

Mm, so now we're talking about drifting eh? Around where I live people like to go to "Skyline" when the feel like drifting. Heres a picture of the typical way up to Skyline.

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The red circle is a parking lot with a really nice view of the area. If you go there during the summer you're guaranteed to meet mountain racers.

I went up to skyline regularly for a long time (and never meet anybody who could beat me on that course ) until the accident I had. Heres a close up of the turn it was on:

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There was a sharp decrease in elevation in the middle of the turn I hadn't accounted for. I lost control and was heading straight into the mountain. In a desperate attempt to save myself and my car I did the only thing I could think of: slam the crap out of the gas.

I managed to power slide my car to face the right direction and push the momentum as much as possible the right direction but it still wasn't enough. The left tires went off the rode and up onto the incline (which was about 90% grade) and the car was effectively doing a pop-a-wheelie on its right side.

I can't figure out how it happened exactly, but the car managed to get off the mountain and back onto the road. The car actually drove away. Ever since then I'm too scared to go full speed on skyline, although I will still go drifting at about 60% my ability uphill as I am comfortable doing this safely. I never drift downhill.

The total cost of repairs was around $1700 replacing a wheel, two tires, and all the junk for the right-front wheel that holds it on (it got bent in from supporting the weight of the car).

Its the same reason you ride a roller coaster, to be close to death. Just a lot closer.

_{* the course}

Let's see:
*Diesel engines have higher thermal efficiency (i remember Bosch & Volkswagen setting the record for serial production road cars to 46% with TDi engines and pump nozzle injection systems) which equals more power per litre of fuel.
*...The limits of which haven't been reached, unlike gasoline engines.
*Diesel fuel is 20% cheaper per litre in europe
*Diesel fuel can be made from organic materials. Renewing fuel, BABYY!
*In regular calm driving, a diesel engine consumes 30% less fuel than a gasoline engine of similar performance.
*Modern diesel technology is so ecological that the total environmental impact, if modern emission equipment is used throughout the organic production and usage chain, is almost zero.

Go check out the monte carlo rally (100% asphalt) and then tell me how much did they drift on the stages. They do slip some but that's due to the tires they need to use because the road can be frozen anytime anywhere in the mountains.

There is technology to make tires that would last till world's end and be perfect for drifting.

Btw: The correct term is oversteering. Drifting refers to the "sport" where people drive around karting tracks in 200sx's trying to oversteer to get some kudos from the judges.

You're right there partially though. On loose and slippery surfaces you don't really turn and acclerate like you do on asphalt but instead sort of rotate the vehicle and apply thrust, like playing asteroids. Peugeot 206 WRC was dominant in the WRC back in its day due to its massive grip. By the numbers it was in no category better than the other cars, but it had so much grip on loose surfaces too that it wasn't necessary to oversteer the vehicle, instead using all power for forward momentum instead of controlling the width of the oversteer.

In drifting one intentionally loses the ample grip and insted send the back of the car wide (losing some stored momentum in the process, as it is used to fling the back of the car instead of propelling the vehicle forward).

They didn't until PSA-Peugeot-Citroën closed down a car manufacturing plant in Ryton-on-Dunsmore, England due to quality and cost issues. Something like 6000 jobs down the drain. Also, Clarckson is Clarckson. His stuff should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Try something like gross endangerment of traffic (under finnish law this alone means you're going to lose your license on the spot and go to court) and/or gross neglect of traffic safety.

BTW: Once you've ridden a motorcycle (a GSX-R, not a Harley ) you realise just how oxymoronic the term 'sports car' really is.

A properly adjusted diesel doesn't engine generate soot. If the fuel mixture gets too rich (and it won't unless the engine is under a stress it wasn't made to endure in the first place), then it'll make soot, but it won't under normal conditions. The generated soot would anyway be caught by the particulate filter (see below).

Guess what? It's been dealt with. Modern production diesel engines are as clean as, if not cleaner than, gasoline engines. European car manufacturers have been installing (well, Peugeot has, anyway) particulate filters as standard equipment since the turn of the millennium. Those filters reduce particle emissions with efficiency of over 90%, and with the development that has taken place in engine technology in the past 10 years, modern diesel exhaust is, to put it bluntly, ecologically almost neglible.

In north america, maybe. European diesel fuel is very clean in comparison.

My friend's brother took a brand new Audi A6 1.9 TDi (common rail piezo injector turbodiesel) with him to the US for a year's commission (why he did it is a taxation issue, and out of the scope of this discussion). Upon returning he had it serviced and the mechanic said he couldn't believe the amount of shit in the fuel filter. He had driven 15k km and the filter looked like it had done 60k. So I kind of understand why you might think that way. But your claim is simply untrue in countries where there is a higher diesel penetration in vehicles and diesel fuel is produced according to the requirements of modern diesel technology.

Common rail or pump nozzle diesel injection + particulate filter = No distinctive diesel exhaust smell. Well... When the temperature outside gets close to -30, then you can smell the distinctive sweet (not pleasant, sickly sweet) smell of particle filtered diesel exhaust. But who wants to be outside on a day like that, anyway?

I grant you, diesel fuel smells quite unpleasant, but it also vaporises more slowly than gasoline so you don't get a headache when filling up.

Not really significantly. With current price of things, to use Finland for an example, a diesel powered car with an annual mileage of 15k-20k km will have paid the increase in price off by the end of warranty period, even with the annual 400+ euros of specific diesel tax. And if you take the used car's resale value into account the diesel keeps looking better by the minute.

That is simply not true. There's no significant difference in amount of work or cost of parts in maintenance.

Biodiesel can be made from pretty much anything organic. Animal fats, tree stumps, corn stems, potato peels, you name it. It's a matter of properly and efficiently recycling the organic by-products. Obviously pure biodiesel is going to be more expensive than mineral based diesel but least we'll have an option until hydrogen cell technology can be perfected for mass consupmtion.

They use oversteering as usual in mountaneous gravel rallies like Sardinia. They aren't afraid of the ridges, they're skilled drivers. It's simply slower when there's enough traction available.

I'm pretty well in the know what oversteering and understeering are. If I wasn't, I'd be dead now. They actually taught us some basic 'drifting' techniques in driving school to keep in mind for winter.

Back when my driver's license was brand new I was a reckless driver myself. Once I came to this tight bend on a gravel road way too fast and my car (Peugeot 205 GTi) started to understeer. somehow instead of panicking I managed to clear the bend by turning the steering wheel all the way to the lock, flooring it and pulling the handbrake. What happened was that the front wheels started to pull the front towards the bend, the body started yawing and as the rear wheels were locked the back flung nicely back into proper orientation. Had it been an asphalt road the car would've probably rolled over if I had tried that.

This story is to point out that there's a curious thing about lateral grip and traction that most drifting fans forget: If you lose one, you lose the other. If your driving wheels start sliding sideways, you'll lose acceleration as well. If you accelerate too hard and get wheelspin, you'll also lose lateral grip and your driving wheels can start slipping sideways. That's why racing drivers don't 'drift': Any excess sideways motion of the driving tires takes from the grip needed for acceleration. On loose surfaces a difting-esque driving technique is preferred by rally pilots because there's very little grip to begin with so one must try to keep the nose pointed in the direction where one wants to accelerate while keeping in mind the current velocity and it's direction.

It is easy to experiment if you can get a car anywhwere where there's enough smooth (flat) ice. Get a rear wheel drive car, fit studded winter tires on the car so you have at least some braking ability. Now have a friend around, and start the car, add throttle and press the brake so the car stands still but the rear wheels start to spin wildly. Now have your friend nudge the the rear of the car from the side. Guess what happens? Yes, it moves easily to the side with minimal effort. Next try the same without the rear wheels spinning - a lot more effort is needed to move the rear sideways.

Right
First, hydrogen is just a fancy way of doing rechargeable batteries that weigh less than usual ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzero
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica

You can't feel 0.8G in a 2.3 ton car that often
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

Performance wise electric cars can be way better than internal combustion ones. Only thing missing is the noise of the muscle cars
Also as most people don't need insane acceleration and top speed main research is to increase efficiency and travelling distance.

Didn't one of the top drivers do it in Mexico just the other day? I wasn't paying close attention, but I think I remember hearing on Eurosport that one guy lost a lot of time when he missed a turn and went down the wrong road and then had to make a U turn...

As for drifting, I've always thought that comparing it with real motorsports drifting is like comparing figure skating with ice hockey...

You all have played too much NeedForSpeed series :p

Take a bike !

Nah. I'm thinking of getting a GSX-R750 this summer. 1998-1999 vintage should be nice and reasonably priced...

http://www.autokulma.fi/upload/ajoneuvot/big/12-49-suzukisrad99.jpg

That's true if you don't take the $$$ into consideration. A USD12k bike can outperform any car from the same price range you can throw at it.

Besides. Cars just aren't as fun.